Hawk G4 Scroll Saw

[jbrowning]

Here is a Hawk G4 scroll saw for sale in Colorado.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2401538733398309/

Jim

[SCROLLERNATION]

I dont use facebook but I have been looking for one of these and I am in Colorado how can I get ahold of it?

 

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

I dont use facebook but I have been looking for one of these and I am in Colorado how can I get ahold of it?

 

Click on that link. It'll take you to the ad and the contact info is there.

[SCROLLERNATION]

6 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Click on that link. It'll take you to the ad and the contact info is there.

Unfortunately, while the link works; because I do not have an account with facebook it will not allow me to get any information.  Most unfortuante.  However, thank you for reaching out! I appreciate the help. 

[OCtoolguy]

37 minutes ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

Unfortunately, while the link works; because I do not have an account with facebook it will not allow me to get any information.  Most unfortuante.  However, thank you for reaching out! I appreciate the help. 

Let me see if I can help.

[OCtoolguy]

I messaged him. Now we have to wait.

[Rockytime]

I messaged as well. No response. 

[SCROLLERNATION]

11 hours ago, Rockytime said:

I messaged as well. No response. 

 

On 4/11/2020 at 8:59 PM, octoolguy said:

I messaged him. Now we have to wait.

THANK YOU!

 

[OCtoolguy]

I got a message that it had sold a few days ago and he had forgotten to take the ad down. Sorry. I have a 226 VS Ultra in like new condition for $475 if you are interested. Long drive I know.

[SCROLLERNATION]

10 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I got a message that it had sold a few days ago and he had forgotten to take the ad down. Sorry. I have a 226 VS Ultra in like new condition for $475 if you are interested. Long drive I know.

I appreciate that! I do however already own one of those in perfect condition.  I was looking at the Hawk G4 to basically give me a test run of the Bushton saw. With the virus spreading it has made me picky once again to buy American made. However I have been on a waiting list with them since the end of 2018 and in march of 2019 I was again put on a list for a BM 26 seriously and I mean seriously considering buying them out and dropping the price and creating it as a production saw with dust collection table and shipping the saws in a crate instead of cardboard box so if and when the need arises it can be shipped back for maintenance and repairs.  Not to mention no issues recieving it new either.  I will stick with my favorite PS WOOD 21 saw for now as it fits the bill and I do have an extra table that I can do some POLYMERICS on it and bond it into a zero clearance table with a round insert for those smalle projects.  It does have perfect vertical stroke but I am so curious about the G4 and the BM models.  Thank you for your help!

 

[kmmcrafts]

6 hours ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

I appreciate that! I do however already own one of those in perfect condition.  I was looking at the Hawk G4 to basically give me a test run of the Bushton saw. With the virus spreading it has made me picky once again to buy American made. However I have been on a waiting list with them since the end of 2018 and in march of 2019 I was again put on a list for a BM 26 seriously and I mean seriously considering buying them out and dropping the price and creating it as a production saw with dust collection table and shipping the saws in a crate instead of cardboard box so if and when the need arises it can be shipped back for maintenance and repairs.  Not to mention no issues recieving it new either.  I will stick with my favorite PS WOOD 21 saw for now as it fits the bill and I do have an extra table that I can do some POLYMERICS on it and bond it into a zero clearance table with a round insert for those smalle projects.  It does have perfect vertical stroke but I am so curious about the G4 and the BM models.  Thank you for your help!

 

Too bad your so far away.. I'd let you come try my BM-26.. They are almost the same basic saw as the G4.. few minor changes but not so much to make operation that much difference. I like my saw.. but I do like my 226VS Ultra better.. My 220VS saw is also a great saw once you get used to the round barrel clamps.. in fact.. that old saw is the one I've been running the last month or so.. I had troubles with blades breaking about 3 years ago and was busy so I just hopped over to the 226 Ultra.. Finally got around to messing with it.. turned out to be the set screw in the barrel clamps had moved outward and the ends was also worn on an angle for some reason.. Not sure how it did that but I dressed the ends of screws and put loc-tite on them... running awesome now for the last few weeks.. 

If you're wondering about the adjustable blade angle of the BM-26.. It is nice to be able to fine tune it to where you like it... but at the same time it's not that big of a deal at least for me... and that was my sole purpose of buying the BM-26 is to test and see how I like it compared to the Ultra.. and as I said it is a nice feature.. but not so much so that it's worth the added cost.. I also feel like the Ultra is a heavier built saw.. Just my 2 cents.. Find a Ultra and save some money.. 

Thank you for looking into " buying American " and buying from local small business's.. It's hard to do that these days.. 

[OCtoolguy]

13 hours ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

I appreciate that! I do however already own one of those in perfect condition.  I was looking at the Hawk G4 to basically give me a test run of the Bushton saw. With the virus spreading it has made me picky once again to buy American made. However I have been on a waiting list with them since the end of 2018 and in march of 2019 I was again put on a list for a BM 26 seriously and I mean seriously considering buying them out and dropping the price and creating it as a production saw with dust collection table and shipping the saws in a crate instead of cardboard box so if and when the need arises it can be shipped back for maintenance and repairs.  Not to mention no issues recieving it new either.  I will stick with my favorite PS WOOD 21 saw for now as it fits the bill and I do have an extra table that I can do some POLYMERICS on it and bond it into a zero clearance table with a round insert for those smalle projects.  It does have perfect vertical stroke but I am so curious about the G4 and the BM models.  Thank you for your help!

 

Somebody with some business sense and some cash should buy them out and run the business correctly. Whatever their problems are, they are succeeding in ruining the scroll saw part of their operation. It's really a shame that they seem to be blind to their errors.

[SCROLLERNATION]

10 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Too bad your so far away.. I'd let you come try my BM-26.. They are almost the same basic saw as the G4.. few minor changes but not so much to make operation that much difference. I like my saw.. but I do like my 226VS Ultra better.. My 220VS saw is also a great saw once you get used to the round barrel clamps.. in fact.. that old saw is the one I've been running the last month or so.. I had troubles with blades breaking about 3 years ago and was busy so I just hopped over to the 226 Ultra.. Finally got around to messing with it.. turned out to be the set screw in the barrel clamps had moved outward and the ends was also worn on an angle for some reason.. Not sure how it did that but I dressed the ends of screws and put loc-tite on them... running awesome now for the last few weeks.. 

If you're wondering about the adjustable blade angle of the BM-26.. It is nice to be able to fine tune it to where you like it... but at the same time it's not that big of a deal at least for me... and that was my sole purpose of buying the BM-26 is to test and see how I like it compared to the Ultra.. and as I said it is a nice feature.. but not so much so that it's worth the added cost.. I also feel like the Ultra is a heavier built saw.. Just my 2 cents.. Find a Ultra and save some money.. 

Thank you for looking into " buying American " and buying from local small business's.. It's hard to do that these days.. 

I have three hawk ULTRA VS saws.  In perfect condition actually.  a 226 and two 220.  They are nice. I was just wondering if the new bm26 had less vibration and if the stroke could be exactly perfect like my PS WOOD and my excelsior.  My clamps on my saws are not the barrel style but the 216 I had that I rebuilt and sold my cousin did and it had as well a perfect stroke.  My PS WOOD 14 inch was perfect as well.  For me this is important for the fragile pieces and makes using the niqua new spiral so much more fun.  The hawk G4 though its a hard to find little legend.  The bushton saws do worry me but my PS WOOD is american made.  It is however casted in taiwan.  But all machining painting assembling and a lof of parts are American.  Its just fun to have other saws and get people together to make a project together for fun.  Or let people test before they buy one of their own.  Just clean fun

[SCROLLERNATION]

4 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Somebody with some business sense and some cash should buy them out and run the business correctly. Whatever their problems are, they are succeeding in ruining the scroll saw part of their operation. It's really a shame that they seem to be blind to their errors.

I am very seriously considering the buying of the patent and the plans and getting some good machines and a building to manufacture it and make it a world wide saw.  Try and lower the price on it ship it for free in the USA in a stout wooden crate.  But the new company in Kansas dont seem to care.  I have been waiting on a BM 26 for two years and after my phone call with them friday I have decided to just stick with what I have and use the PS WOOD 21.  Its a great saw and I have never ever been able to stall it.  I have tried and its a monster cutter.  With a zero clearance table it will do some very delicate work.  The table is so big it supports everything.  On that saw I have never ever snagged and edge. Plus other than it being casted in taiwan. It is machined, painted and assembled here in the USA. i highly recommend the pswood team.  They will become like family.  They run thier business so well.  I wish they would take over the hawk actually.  They would have it thrive.

[OCtoolguy]

14 minutes ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

I am very seriously considering the buying of the patent and the plans and getting some good machines and a building to manufacture it and make it a world wide saw.  Try and lower the price on it ship it for free in the USA in a stout wooden crate.  But the new company in Kansas dont seem to care.  I have been waiting on a BM 26 for two years and after my phone call with them friday I have decided to just stick with what I have and use the PS WOOD 21.  Its a great saw and I have never ever been able to stall it.  I have tried and its a monster cutter.  With a zero clearance table it will do some very delicate work.  The table is so big it supports everything.  On that saw I have never ever snagged and edge. Plus other than it being casted in taiwan. It is machined, painted and assembled here in the USA. i highly recommend the pswood team.  They will become like family.  They run thier business so well.  I wish they would take over the hawk actually.  They would have it thrive.

I looked very hard at the PS Wood machine too. Now, I have what I feel is the best machines built at the time. The Hawk was something I couldn't pass up.

 

[SCROLLERNATION]

1 minute ago, octoolguy said:

I looked very hard at the PS Wood machine too. Now, I have what I feel is the best machines built at the time. The Hawk was something I couldn't pass up.

 

Thats just my problem.  The three that I have are very very nice.  One feature I really like is the dust hole below the table.  If you really wanted to make a dust collector that worked off the vibration with that hole you could.  The 226 vs hawk I have I bought used and rebuilt some things on it because they were dry rotted.  Bellows, loc line some capacitors and the plastic retainer on the lower arm that holds the head in.  I know for a fact that I have not even broke that one in yet because it still is aggressive.  The others have worn in some and are incredible.  I will say this though bushton did one thing right and thats the rear barrel washer holding the pivot wedge. That was a great idea.  I wonder though what would happen if someone were to buy the hawk change the color to a chrome red or a neon green or a beautiful pearl blue or even that candy apple red the Honda Goldwings have and polish the table to a mirror shine..  Everyone has that one thing they spend money on that one thing they care about and for many it is thier saw. 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

I have three hawk ULTRA VS saws.  In perfect condition actually.  a 226 and two 220.  They are nice. I was just wondering if the new bm26 had less vibration and if the stroke could be exactly perfect like my PS WOOD and my excelsior.  My clamps on my saws are not the barrel style but the 216 I had that I rebuilt and sold my cousin did and it had as well a perfect stroke.  My PS WOOD 14 inch was perfect as well.  For me this is important for the fragile pieces and makes using the niqua new spiral so much more fun.  The hawk G4 though its a hard to find little legend.  The bushton saws do worry me but my PS WOOD is american made.  It is however casted in taiwan.  But all machining painting assembling and a lof of parts are American.  Its just fun to have other saws and get people together to make a project together for fun.  Or let people test before they buy one of their own.  Just clean fun

I strongly looked at the PS Wood saw.. My reason I didn't make a go at one was the fact they're sold out.. and they seem to not be adding any inventory as far as saws go.. Something else that turns me off is the way the blade changes are.. or at least the way they show how to on their video.. looks very cumbersome for someone like me the does mostly fretwork.. I already had the DeWalt, Excalibur, Delta, Hawk 220VS ( oldie ) and the 226 Ultra saw when i made my purchase of the BM-26.. I didn't "need " the saw as you can tell..LOL  It was more of a "want to try and a tax write off" that made me buy a saw.. I knew the Hawk was well built from the experience of the older models I had already been using... 

The other thing I dislike about the PS Wood and many other saws is the cast... Nothing on my Hawks is cast... If something breaks and Bushton goes under.. I have plenty of machinist in the family that'd hook me up with what I need to get my saw back up and running... You can't always say that about other saws... Not saying that a machinist couldn't make a machined part to replace a cast part.. but a machined part to replace a machined part is much easier to to.. 

As for vibration of the new BM-26.. It's a smooth saw.. much like the Ultra..where it has it's certain speeds that have a little more vibration than the other speeds.. Bushton did a few changes to lighten up the arms etc of the saw and in my opinion.. and others I've talked with that have had older Hawks and now have the BM series saw.. The BM does have more vibration than that of the Ultra style saws... I don't know if that would be the same case of the G4.. There are thing I like and dislike about each saw.. and many times it just depends upon what type of project I'm working on as to what saw I prefer to use.. I can certainly cut everything on any of the saws if i had to choose just one saw.. But being able to have multipal saws set up to run different projects sure is nice...

 

[SCROLLERNATION]

3 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I strongly looked at the PS Wood saw.. My reason I didn't make a go at one was the fact they're sold out.. and they seem to not be adding any inventory as far as saws go.. Something else that turns me off is the way the blade changes are.. or at least the way they show how to on their video.. looks very cumbersome for someone like me the does mostly fretwork.. I already had the DeWalt, Excalibur, Delta, Hawk 220VS ( oldie ) and the 226 Ultra saw when i made my purchase of the BM-26.. I didn't "need " the saw as you can tell..LOL  It was more of a "want to try and a tax write off" that made me buy a saw.. I knew the Hawk was well built from the experience of the older models I had already been using... 

The other thing I dislike about the PS Wood and many other saws is the cast... Nothing on my Hawks is cast... If something breaks and Bushton goes under.. I have plenty of machinist in the family that'd hook me up with what I need to get my saw back up and running... You can't always say that about other saws... Not saying that a machinist couldn't make a machined part to replace a cast part.. but a machined part to replace a machined part is much easier to to.. 

As for vibration of the new BM-26.. It's a smooth saw.. much like the Ultra..where it has it's certain speeds that have a little more vibration than the other speeds.. Bushton did a few changes to lighten up the arms etc of the saw and in my opinion.. and others I've talked with that have had older Hawks and now have the BM series saw.. The BM does have more vibration than that of the Ultra style saws... I don't know if that would be the same case of the G4.. There are thing I like and dislike about each saw.. and many times it just depends upon what type of project I'm working on as to what saw I prefer to use.. I can certainly cut everything on any of the saws if i had to choose just one saw.. But being able to have multipal saws set up to run different projects sure is nice...

 

You and I are a lot alike different saws set up for different things.  And you are right. When your doing a lot of pierce work the ps wood is very cumbersome because you cant just bottom feed.  I did notice that on the BM series saws in thier videos online they made the blade holders bigger which is no so bright.  My ps wood at all speeds is smooth.  If i could change the way i do pierce cuts on it i wouldnt use anything else.  But for a while I made my living doing simple shapes and speed on thick wood the ps wood really did the trick but for all my heavy pierce cuts i used the excelsior.  Problem is mine is a 30 and that arm just really worked my back into knots so i used the hawk.  One of the hawks has the chair legs which id like to put on the 226 if they will fit.  They have a metal bar on each side that stabilizes them.  I do think though if i had a G4 I would be content.  But i would also be content on a hegner. I did after all learn on one and they are very nice.  Now though I scroll slower because my belly doesnt count on it.  Just for fun and I sell things cheap just to make a dollar maybe here and there to pay for the wood and glue and ink etc.  

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

You and I are a lot alike different saws set up for different things.  And you are right. When your doing a lot of pierce work the ps wood is very cumbersome because you cant just bottom feed.  I did notice that on the BM series saws in thier videos online they made the blade holders bigger which is no so bright.  My ps wood at all speeds is smooth.  If i could change the way i do pierce cuts on it i wouldnt use anything else.  But for a while I made my living doing simple shapes and speed on thick wood the ps wood really did the trick but for all my heavy pierce cuts i used the excelsior.  Problem is mine is a 30 and that arm just really worked my back into knots so i used the hawk.  One of the hawks has the chair legs which id like to put on the 226 if they will fit.  They have a metal bar on each side that stabilizes them.  I do think though if i had a G4 I would be content.  But i would also be content on a hegner. I did after all learn on one and they are very nice.  Now though I scroll slower because my belly doesnt count on it.  Just for fun and I sell things cheap just to make a dollar maybe here and there to pay for the wood and glue and ink etc.  

I might have to weigh the holders to see how much difference there is.. But.. while they are slightly larger on the BM.. I don't think they're that much larger.. They rounded off the corners on the BM clamps to shave off some weight where as the Ultra holders are all squared off.. I bet there isn't much difference it weight between the two.. 

I actually like the larger size better.. The one thing they cheapened up.. actually two things but.. The connecting rod ( flat stock on the Ultra and older saws ) that goes from the motor to the lower arm.. That piece is like 1/4" and solid on the older saws... but the BM has a thinner one and the back side is hollowed out.. It seems to work okay for now but to me it seems a bit cheap looking especially compared to that solid one of the older saws.. The other thing is the front pinion ( angle adjustment bracket that bolts to the saw ) the old saws had a machined bracket.. but the BM has a molded plastic mount.. But Hawk made this change back when they designed the G4 as the G4s have the same plastic piece.. never heard of anyone needing to replace it but to me it cheapens the saw.. or at least makes it look cheap comparing to the old saws. The old saying... They don't make stuff like they used to.. LOL.. sure is a lot of those very old Hawks out there still running strong.. can't say that about too many brands.. 

 

Edit to add: You mentioned dust collection.. The BM series saw has the blade out in front of the angle adjustment unlike the ultra where it's back behind the angle adjustment.. The BM series will cover your lap in sawdust much like the Dewalt and Excalibur type saw will do.. The older saws the dust doesn't drop very far before it lands on top of the saw stand.. I notice my shop get's much less dust stired up running the older saws too.. as it doesn't float through the air all the way down to the lap and floor.. The ultra has a plug back under the blade in the stand where it'd be real easy to hook up a dust port.. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by kmmcrafts

[amazingkevin]

Thanks for sharing so much info on the saws!!!

[SCROLLERNATION]

8 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I might have to weigh the holders to see how much difference there is.. But.. while they are slightly larger on the BM.. I don't think they're that much larger.. They rounded off the corners on the BM clamps to shave off some weight where as the Ultra holders are all squared off.. I bet there isn't much difference it weight between the two.. 

I actually like the larger size better.. The one thing they cheapened up.. actually two things but.. The connecting rod ( flat stock on the Ultra and older saws ) that goes from the motor to the lower arm.. That piece is like 1/4" and solid on the older saws... but the BM has a thinner one and the back side is hollowed out.. It seems to work okay for now but to me it seems a bit cheap looking especially compared to that solid one of the older saws.. The other thing is the front pinion ( angle adjustment bracket that bolts to the saw ) the old saws had a machined bracket.. but the BM has a molded plastic mount.. But Hawk made this change back when they designed the G4 as the G4s have the same plastic piece.. never heard of anyone needing to replace it but to me it cheapens the saw.. or at least makes it look cheap comparing to the old saws. The old saying... They don't make stuff like they used to.. LOL.. sure is a lot of those very old Hawks out there still running strong.. can't say that about too many brands.. 

 

Edit to add: You mentioned dust collection.. The BM series saw has the blade out in front of the angle adjustment unlike the ultra where it's back behind the angle adjustment.. The BM series will cover your lap in sawdust much like the Dewalt and Excalibur type saw will do.. The older saws the dust doesn't drop very far before it lands on top of the saw stand.. I notice my shop get's much less dust stired up running the older saws too.. as it doesn't float through the air all the way down to the lap and floor.. The ultra has a plug back under the blade in the stand where it'd be real easy to hook up a dust port.. 

I agree on the dust. 100% I love that little hole under the blade.  Engineering on the hawk to make it smooth is literally just where the weight is shifted from the arm to plane X.  On an engineering standpoint smaller doesnt always mean less strength.  In fact some materials are incredibly strong and reduce vibration on a lot of things.  Its just about the right material and the right assembly and orientation to load. On these saws putting that vibration elsewhere like the rebar buried in concrete is done through the use of a 3 sided stand. Like the hegner and the dewalt.  The stand to be effecient however should be welded together and formed of steel to prevent cracking.  Casted materials are amazing and relatively strong when it comes to certain vibrations because they distibute the forces evenly through their mass.  To say they eliminate it is wrong they simply transfer it through themselves and away from the area you dont want it like for example where your blade meets the wood.  Now plastics certain types especially are so good for dissipating vibration through the use of added fillers like fibers for example that give it way more strength and longevity also silicon to prevent it from cracking or glue sticking to it.  It wont crack and absorbs sound. Which when your on a certain speed on any saw it will be more violent than the rest of the speeds because of harmonic frequency. Since on Earth we have an atmosphere sound electricity etc it all travels through the molecules of the air.  So plastics get welded with sound.  It disrupts the molecules and creates heat.  Like a mini controlled hydrogen bomb.  Now. If it says ABS on it yeah its garbage.  Abs is good for simple things like vaccum attachments that your going to wear out anyway or to use as a spacer to prevent two metals from touching etc.  So the hawk plastic pieces very well could be a special engineered plastic.  I use tape on satellites. lol its 10k a roll but hey works better than metal in some spots. haha  If you look at the upper arm on a hegner with a quick release it dips down.  Now the amount of math and physics that goes into the angle and the weight and where the weight will fall is insane and its what makes the hegner so smooth.  Steel also is not a heat sink the hegner is cast steel except for the table.  On the hawk lubrication is key.  Aluminum soaks in heat it gets sticky lets call it and has more friction.  Because its oxide layers are so hard to burst the heat transfers through the oxides into the metal like the pivot wedge at the rear of the saw and it starts to weaken and crack and deform.  The hegners steel handles more and therefore stays smooth.  Bearings with grease like the link style thats why they are so smooth as well.  The end weight of the heads in relation to the force of the pitman arm on the motor and weight of the rear tensioning components are almost directly related.  Friction causes heat.  Vibrations cause heat as well. So basically vibration is friction. And friction is heat and heat is directly related to pressure.  Thats why we need lubrication.  Things expand. Outward pressure centripital force.  So plastics can actually help all of this.  Carbon fiber and epoxies; the technology for that stuff is amazing.  I could probably build a saw out of a light weight casted or machined part it wouldnt matter and make the rest high end carbon fiber and youll never have vibration or a problem with it.  ever.  The blade holders in the arms could be bonded and inset just right they will never go bad.  Hegners engineering i must say is pretty good.  They know how to displace the harmonic frequency which is your vibration and keep it at a certain level the entire time.  So cool.  The little things really add up on everything you make and why it reacts the way it does.  Another thing I have noticed about hegner.  They are reliable and efficient and the design has not changed and thus it has been proven and is always a safe buy from new to old.  The difference between the Hegner lets say and the current hawk.  (NOT THE RBI MODELS THEY WERE BETTER FOR A LOT CONSISTENT REASONS) but the difference really is like comparing say a highly engineered lockheed drone that in 50 years still outperforms outlasts and still has the same parts and they haven changed in size shape quality or material to lets say the high end economy drones people spend so much on.  They are consistent for a while then they change then the cycle repeats and you cant get parts and it becomes a mess.  But with all this stuff going on Bushton May go under and someone else may get that design and the rights to it cheap and turn it around to be amazing again.  Thats why I got the PS WOOD. For one the price and a 5 year warranty and the parts and the people who own it. Stability and craftsmanship.  It is the same its always been minus the upgraded upper head (but the arm is still the same so the old style clamps will still work and with those little heads vibration is almost gone entirely) It has a locline with no additional accessories to mount it keeping the frame the same. The foot has never changed everything is the same or improved like belt composition or the way they are casted but the shape stays the same.  One improvement is the lower arm where the barrel washer sits in the tensioning mechanism of the saw.  It isnt just a half moon shape anymore like sakura it is a full circumference.  5 year warranty and parts are inexpensive and work and always will.  If the hawk were to be consistent like a 7 year warranty hegner and someone who knows how to engineer it with the right materials and doesnt just guess and go hey it works and sell it but does it properly it would be back to the top as an American classic.  But with this inexpensive pegas with a beautiful red and amazing heads which are so much easier than the stock heads with dust extraction that does work rather well if you adjust the paper correctly and everything out of your way to load a project its hard to beat.  2 year warranty though which is a standard industry warranty on things it seems.  That black coating is something special i believe too.  Ill have to test it and see what it is. My excelsior is the 30 inch model and the arm does work my back and shoulder in spots i dont want it to after a full day.  I do like though on the hegners and hawks when the blade breaks the arm just pops up and quits moving.   My ps wood does too but when it pops if your face is close you will get hurt and bad it definitely goes back up lol.  The X models kinda just keep chopping but because the way the end of the table sits to the blade and your body positioning its almost like you have a faster reaction time to pull off the pedal when it happens.  Sorry for the tangent.  I work on planes and do space vehicles and missiles and satellites and i get nerdy outside of work.  Apologies.

[SCROLLERNATION]

9 hours ago, amazingkevin said:

Thanks for sharing so much info on the saws!!!

Thats what is so cool about this place everyone has an experience with a saw or a few and the insight is great.  It can really hone you to a saw that works for what you like to do most.  Heavy fret work, puzzles, intarsia, compounding.  Fun stuff. And for me I love mechanical things so scroll saws for me are heaven. 

[kmmcrafts]

31 minutes ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

I agree on the dust. 100% I love that little hole under the blade.  Engineering on the hawk to make it smooth is literally just where the weight is shifted from the arm to plane X.  On an engineering standpoint smaller doesnt always mean less strength.  In fact some materials are incredibly strong and reduce vibration on a lot of things.  Its just about the right material and the right assembly and orientation to load. On these saws putting that vibration elsewhere like the rebar buried in concrete is done through the use of a 3 sided stand. Like the hegner and the dewalt.  The stand to be effecient however should be welded together and formed of steel to prevent cracking.  Casted materials are amazing and relatively strong when it comes to certain vibrations because they distibute the forces evenly through their mass.  To say they eliminate it is wrong they simply transfer it through themselves and away from the area you dont want it like for example where your blade meets the wood.  Now plastics certain types especially are so good for dissipating vibration through the use of added fillers like fibers for example that give it way more strength and longevity also silicon to prevent it from cracking or glue sticking to it.  It wont crack and absorbs sound. Which when your on a certain speed on any saw it will be more violent than the rest of the speeds because of harmonic frequency. Since on Earth we have an atmosphere sound electricity etc it all travels through the molecules of the air.  So plastics get welded with sound.  It disrupts the molecules and creates heat.  Like a mini controlled hydrogen bomb.  Now. If it says ABS on it yeah its garbage.  Abs is good for simple things like vaccum attachments that your going to wear out anyway or to use as a spacer to prevent two metals from touching etc.  So the hawk plastic pieces very well could be a special engineered plastic.  I use tape on satellites. lol its 10k a roll but hey works better than metal in some spots. haha  If you look at the upper arm on a hegner with a quick release it dips down.  Now the amount of math and physics that goes into the angle and the weight and where the weight will fall is insane and its what makes the hegner so smooth.  Steel also is not a heat sink the hegner is cast steel except for the table.  On the hawk lubrication is key.  Aluminum soaks in heat it gets sticky lets call it and has more friction.  Because its oxide layers are so hard to burst the heat transfers through the oxides into the metal like the pivot wedge at the rear of the saw and it starts to weaken and crack and deform.  The hegners steel handles more and therefore stays smooth.  Bearings with grease like the link style thats why they are so smooth as well.  The end weight of the heads in relation to the force of the pitman arm on the motor and weight of the rear tensioning components are almost directly related.  Friction causes heat.  Vibrations cause heat as well. So basically vibration is friction. And friction is heat and heat is directly related to pressure.  Thats why we need lubrication.  Things expand. Outward pressure centripital force.  So plastics can actually help all of this.  Carbon fiber and epoxies; the technology for that stuff is amazing.  I could probably build a saw out of a light weight casted or machined part it wouldnt matter and make the rest high end carbon fiber and youll never have vibration or a problem with it.  ever.  The blade holders in the arms could be bonded and inset just right they will never go bad.  Hegners engineering i must say is pretty good.  They know how to displace the harmonic frequency which is your vibration and keep it at a certain level the entire time.  So cool.  The little things really add up on everything you make and why it reacts the way it does.  Another thing I have noticed about hegner.  They are reliable and efficient and the design has not changed and thus it has been proven and is always a safe buy from new to old.  The difference between the Hegner lets say and the current hawk.  (NOT THE RBI MODELS THEY WERE BETTER FOR A LOT CONSISTENT REASONS) but the difference really is like comparing say a highly engineered lockheed drone that in 50 years still outperforms outlasts and still has the same parts and they haven changed in size shape quality or material to lets say the high end economy drones people spend so much on.  They are consistent for a while then they change then the cycle repeats and you cant get parts and it becomes a mess.  But with all this stuff going on Bushton May go under and someone else may get that design and the rights to it cheap and turn it around to be amazing again.  Thats why I got the PS WOOD. For one the price and a 5 year warranty and the parts and the people who own it. Stability and craftsmanship.  It is the same its always been minus the upgraded upper head (but the arm is still the same so the old style clamps will still work and with those little heads vibration is almost gone entirely) It has a locline with no additional accessories to mount it keeping the frame the same. The foot has never changed everything is the same or improved like belt composition or the way they are casted but the shape stays the same.  One improvement is the lower arm where the barrel washer sits in the tensioning mechanism of the saw.  It isnt just a half moon shape anymore like sakura it is a full circumference.  5 year warranty and parts are inexpensive and work and always will.  If the hawk were to be consistent like a 7 year warranty hegner and someone who knows how to engineer it with the right materials and doesnt just guess and go hey it works and sell it but does it properly it would be back to the top as an American classic.  But with this inexpensive pegas with a beautiful red and amazing heads which are so much easier than the stock heads with dust extraction that does work rather well if you adjust the paper correctly and everything out of your way to load a project its hard to beat.  2 year warranty though which is a standard industry warranty on things it seems.  That black coating is something special i believe too.  Ill have to test it and see what it is. My excelsior is the 30 inch model and the arm does work my back and shoulder in spots i dont want it to after a full day.  I do like though on the hegners and hawks when the blade breaks the arm just pops up and quits moving.   My ps wood does too but when it pops if your face is close you will get hurt and bad it definitely goes back up lol.  The X models kinda just keep chopping but because the way the end of the table sits to the blade and your body positioning its almost like you have a faster reaction time to pull off the pedal when it happens.  Sorry for the tangent.  I work on planes and do space vehicles and missiles and satellites and i get nerdy outside of work.  Apologies.

No apologies needed, I found this very interesting and I'm sure others will too..

Hegner is one saw that I want to give a try.. I see a lot of folks talk about then not being user friendly for fretwork type cutting and that's the biggest reason 3 years ago I passed on one that was at an estate sale for $40... plus the one was a very small saw 12 -14" and single speed etc.. came with tons of parts clamps etc.. But I passed.. and also passed on some other decent deals.. But after seeing others talk of them i want to give one a try.. and of coarse.. now that I want to try one.. I can't find any deals, LOL... at least when i have the cash anyway.. if I'm broke... deals everywhere, LOL Someday I'll snag a deal on one.. 

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10 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

No apologies needed, I found this very interesting and I'm sure others will too..

Hegner is one saw that I want to give a try.. I see a lot of folks talk about then not being user friendly for fretwork type cutting and that's the biggest reason 3 years ago I passed on one that was at an estate sale for $40... plus the one was a very small saw 12 -14" and single speed etc.. came with tons of parts clamps etc.. But I passed.. and also passed on some other decent deals.. But after seeing others talk of them i want to give one a try.. and of coarse.. now that I want to try one.. I can't find any deals, LOL... at least when i have the cash anyway.. if I'm broke... deals everywhere, LOL Someday I'll snag a deal on one.. 

Here in colorado there is a 22 inch that came up for sale yesterday for 350.  I learned on a Hegner.  They are different.  Like how hawk has its own beautiful sound the hegner has its own stealth sound and feel.  It is amazing.  For fret workit the same as the hawk.  I cant remember though its been awhile if the blade tilts forward like the hawk  I know i have never ever broken a blade on a hegner just wore them out and just like the ps wood the blade if you choose to can come out and be loaded above the tabe and reinserted.  But for fret work its just like every other saw.  The excelsior is honestly the best for faster easier fret work.  But it wears on your back so you have a trade off.  I run my saws flat and perfectly level on all sides and corner to corner. if you tilt it forward and have the right chair maybe it would be different i dont know i finally just set mine up with a perfect stroke and run only spirals in it now for huge pictures or use it for the larger projects that I want sharp corners in. Im not a fan of the spirals to be honest I like the tight turn clean edge look that i can achieve much quicker.  My old delta c arm 40-601 while its loud and replaceing the blade kinda sucks. Its fun and easy to use for fret work I love it.  If it would just be quiet i would be happy.  I actually use that one for metal cutting because the speed controller on those tend to go out and i want it to last.  It also does creat with thin stock and spirals.  But for anything above a quarter inch that i want a tight turn i use everything else.  Hegners though.  They are great if you get one with the dust extraction the hose has to be just right to suck instead of blow the dust and will work better with a low pressure higher volume type system like the foredom..  It is based on bernoullis principle. High pressure seeks low pressure and velocity gets changed to suction and Newtons three laws as well. Same as an airplane wing but the work done is suction. But in a wierd way its fluid mechanics because of the composition of our air.  Its like an open hydraulic system with pascals law and boyles law working together in a really backwards way sort of lol  But too much could cause the air to simply not flow right.  Having the right flow and the the hose positioned into the lower holder just right will make or break that system.  Id add an extra blower hose off the bellows to cool you down in the summer haha.  jk but a blower on one side and a dust sucker on the other of a larger hose out of the way would be more efficient in catching dust.  I think I have decided on a new hegner when i move now i just need to figure out what model i want. 

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Anyone else have some fun insight on the Hawk G4 or the BM models? Likes dislike wishful changes?