RBI Hawk 226VS Question

[TAIrving]

Can anyone advise me about the aproximate age of an RBI Hawk 226VS serial number 13082?

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

11 minutes ago, TAIrving said:

Can anyone advise me about the aproximate age of an RBI Hawk 226VS serial number 13082?

I think the best thing to do is to call the people who know and tell you alot about your saw. As far as a actual list of serial numbers I am not sure there is one. There is sort of one for paper work that may help if you want to try. 

http://www.hawkwoodworkingtools.com/WebsitePages/Scroll-Saw-Manuals.html

[kmmcrafts]

No idea based only on a serial number.. I don't have that kind of info on them but a call to Bushton will get your answer.. I can tell a little info on a saw based on some photos but that is just rough guessing from watching marketplace / researching over the years.. 

[TAIrving]

@JTTHECLOCKMAN & @kmmcrafts,

I checked with Bushton and they said that saw was manufactured in 2000 and is considered part of the Ultra series.

Next question; is that a good saw?  How does it compare to the current models?  What would be a fair price for it?  

The listing says it has never been used.  The lister got if from a widow whose husband bought it new and died before he could ever use it.  The picture in the listing looks like that could be true.  It just has a little dust on it.  

(20+) Marketplace - RBI Hawk scroll saw model 226VS | Facebook

Edited December 16, 2024 by TAIrving
update the information.

[preprius]

I have a an older 226vs hawk.

I bought used 3yrs ago. I am the 3rd owner.  It is a great unit.  I would not hesitate to buy an unused hawk. 

Me.Mark Eason

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 hours ago, TAIrving said:

@JTTHECLOCKMAN & @kmmcrafts,

I checked with Bushton and they said that saw was manufactured in 2000 and is considered part of the Ultra series.

Next question; is that a good saw?  How does it compare to the current models?  What would be a fair price for it?  

The listing says it has never been used.  The lister got if from a widow whose husband bought it new and died before he could ever use it.  The picture in the listing looks like that could be true.  It just has a little dust on it.  

(20+) Marketplace - RBI Hawk scroll saw model 226VS | Facebook

Yes it is a good saw. I am not sure when they switched to the black articulating air hose. That was a giveaway when they were built too. I have an Ultra Hawk also and it was built in 1998 but have a lower serial number by alot. Did not have that black hose. Still does not and yet I have 2 in a drawer as I bought the kit years ago. So I do not know how they go by all that stuff and that is why it is best to talk with them. I have both a 220 and 226 and used the heck out of them over the years since then and probably stopped production work back in 2020. Many hours on mine and never a problem. No greasing or oiling The only thing I learned was to every once in awhile to shoot some dry lube on that front blade tension lever. Other than that not one complaint and they made me alot of money over those years. I recommend RBI all the time. Price wise is tough because the lack of want these days. being the condition $600 range is a nice buy.  She has it listed for $400 I would be all over it if in the market for one. It is a large saw though. Big footprint. You need the room. I started with the 220 but my projects got larger so I went up in size. Consider this too if you are interested. If you look at it have the ability to run it and put it through its speed ranges. Cut some wood with it. Bring a blade or two and some small pieces of harder woods like oak. Good luck.

Edited December 16, 2024 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah and of coarse they put a whopping 2 pictures up and neither are of any of the telling points.. As JT said the black hose can sometimes be a tell sign but then again not because there is a upgrade kit to swap to that flex hose.. I also think in the early models there may have been a upgrade option to get the black flex hose..

My Ultra 226VS is serial number 1020** on the receipt that was in the box when I opened it up shows it was ordered in Dec. 1998 I'm not certain but I think my number is 102084 or their about since I can't remember exactly what it is.. Was just looking at the tag the other day is the only reason I remember that much of it, LOL Maybe I better re-look at the number.. I might have too many digits there, LOL or this one is a very early round barrel clamp style.. either way if it was never used it'd last someone a very long time. When I go back out to the shop in a while I'll look better at my number. 

Mine did come with the black flex hose on it.. my old 1993 220VS I upgraded to the black flex hose and newer style upper blade chuck and tension cam mechanism.. Had many people ask about that when they'd see picture on FB groups..  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Yeah and of coarse they put a whopping 2 pictures up and neither are of any of the telling points.. As JT said the black hose can sometimes be a tell sign but then again not because there is a upgrade kit to swap to that flex hose.. I also think in the early models there may have been a upgrade option to get the black flex hose..

I mentioned I did this with mine. Never put them on. They will go with the saw when my family sells the saw when I am gone to the great scrollsaw place in Heaven. May have to bring an example of my work. Hope the family includes something in the casket so I can take with me.

[Scrappile]

I recently purchased a used 226VS Hawk.  Serial number 18878.  As far as I can tell from the work, it is a 2004 vintage.  It is a great saw but very big as far as scrollsaws go.  I sorta wish it was a 220.  But maybe someday I will be glad it is that large.  Makes my 220 Hegner look like a little toy, and I have never yet used the capacity of the Hegner.

Edited December 17, 2024 by Scrappile

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

4 hours ago, Scrappile said:

I recently purchased a used 226VS Hawk.  Serial number 18878.  Near as I can tell from paper work it is 2004 vintage.  It is a great say, but very big as far as scrollsaws go.  I sorta wish it was a 220.  But maybe some day I will be glad it is that large.  Makes my 220 Hegner look like a little toy and I have never yet used the capacity of the Hegner.

Yes the footprint for a 226 is large compared to 220. You would not think there would be that much difference but yes there is.

[preprius]

I had to change 2 designs because 26" arm was too small.  But creativity and spiral blades come into play alot when you hit the limit of the arm. 

[kmmcrafts]

40 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Yes the footprint for a 226 is large compared to 220. You would not think there would be that much difference but yes there is.

Since you have both sizes ( I assume both Ultra versions?) does one run any smoother than the other? Which do you like to use most or your go to saw. I had a 220VS and a 216VS but they were the older round barrel clamp style.. those both ran very smooth.. but I felt both my 26" saws I always thought was very slightly more vibration at the harmonic balance speed.. however all the Hawk saws run very smooth for me once you get above or below that one spot.. just the 226 saws seem like they shake a bit more in that spot.. but rightfully so they are a lot more mass to move those longer arms etc.. I've always wanted a 220VS Ultra to try to see if there was any difference. Honestly most things I make now day I could do with the 20" or maybe even less.. 

[Scrappile]

My 226 runs smoothly.  Funny, My Hegner vibrated somewhat at different speeds but had sweet spots at the speeds I liked most, so I never worried about it.  The hawk vibrates a little at some speeds but very little.  The last time I was at my son-in-law, he gave me a pad he had.  It is a very heavy solid pad.  I put my Hegner on it, and no vibration.  Really made a difference.  I put my Hawk on it, and hang on, buckeroo!  Vibrated like crazy!  So Hegner is now on the pad Hawk is not.  You never know.

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Scrappile said:

My 226 runs smoothly.  Funny, My Hegner vibrated somewhat at different speeds but had sweet spots at the speeds I liked most, so I never worried about it.  The hawk vibrates a little at some speeds but very little.  The last time I was at my son-in-law, he gave me a pad he had.  It is a very heavy solid pad.  I put my Hegner on it, and no vibration.  Really made a difference.  I put my Hawk on it, and hang on, buckeroo!  Vibrated like crazy!  So Hegner is now on the pad Hawk is not.  You never know.

I had a Dremel scroll saw that vibrated at all speeds but some was better than others and nothing smooth at all in my comfort speed.. I took a old piece of carpet padding and sandwiched it between the saw and stand.. then I tighten the bolts evenly while saw was running at the speed I like and I got it to run really smooth.. but was pretty bad any of the other speeds.. so there is some ways to get a saw to run at your speed level if you play around and experiment some. 

My Hawks all run smooth at most all the speeds.. there is a certain speed range on each one that does have more vibration than others.. My Hegner is really smooth throughout the speed range so that is one thing that kinda impressed me with it.. it ran smooth as the short parallel link arm saws do.. most the longer arm saws I've used have always had a harmonic balance issue at a certain speed range.. I never felt that with the Hegner.. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

Since you have both sizes ( I assume both Ultra versions?) does one run any smoother than the other? Which do you like to use most or your go to saw. I had a 220VS and a 216VS but they were the older round barrel clamp style.. those both ran very smooth.. but I felt both my 26" saws I always thought was very slightly more vibration at the harmonic balance speed.. however all the Hawk saws run very smooth for me once you get above or below that one spot.. just the 226 saws seem like they shake a bit more in that spot.. but rightfully so they are a lot more mass to move those longer arms etc.. I've always wanted a 220VS Ultra to try to see if there was any difference. Honestly most things I make now day I could do with the 20" or maybe even less.. 

Yes both Ultras and both run smooth as silk. There is a spot more toward the top end in speed that both vibrate a little more. The 226 a little lower than the 220. I believe it maybe the mass of the arm. Both sit on a concrete floor. When I set them up I did have to play with the splaying of the legs a little to get balanced and solid. But that was easy fix. Sit nice and level I bought the 220 first and then next year got the 226. Got both at a woodworking show where I got a better price. He called it a show price and got light and bunch of blades thrown in. He also gave me a few extra clamps which I thought was cool. Did not have to do that. I needed the 226 for the mirrors I was cutting out and other larger projects. There was one project where I had to bend the blade sideways to finish a few cuts but again no big deal. You learn those little tricks. Today they have spiral blades which I hate but have some. I have said this many times here I never played with that wedge in the back after I set tension very first time and always worked off the front lever. I even use jewlers blades and puzzle blades but what I did was cheat the blade ever so slightly in clamp to relieve pressure. Works fine. Again a little trick you pick up. Never oiled a thing except I did learn to shoot some dry lube in that lever ever now and then. Only changed them both once. Have a new set sitting in draw along with those air hoses. I never used a vac. I let the dust fal to ground and at end of day vac saw clean. I have air cleaner near by that scrubs the air and I used a dust mask at all times in my shop any time I have machines running. Still here to tell the story. To me those clamps are beautiful to work. There is a stop at both the back and top so no twisting of the blade as it sits in clamp. It is solid against side of clamp and also the back. I love my RBI saws and best investment for the path I took. They do not owe me a dime. Still going strong. They will get some use this winter for I have a few projects I want to tackle.  

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Yes both Ultras and both run smooth as silk. There is a spot more toward the top end in speed that both vibrate a little more. The 226 a little lower than the 220. I believe it maybe the mass of the arm. Both sit on a concrete floor. When I set them up I did have to play with the splaying of the legs a little to get balanced and solid. But that was easy fix. Sit nice and level I bought the 220 first and then next year got the 226. Got both at a woodworking show where I got a better price. He called it a show price and got light and bunch of blades thrown in. He also gave me a few extra clamps which I thought was cool. Did not have to do that. I needed the 226 for the mirrors I was cutting out and other larger projects. There was one project where I had to bend the blade sideways to finish a few cuts but again no big deal. You learn those little tricks. Today they have spiral blades which I hate but have some. I have said this many times here I never played with that wedge in the back after I set tension very first time and always worked off the front lever. I even use jewlers blades and puzzle blades but what I did was cheat the blade ever so slightly in clamp to relieve pressure. Works fine. Again a little trick you pick up. Never oiled a thing except I did learn to shoot some dry lube in that lever ever now and then. Only changed them both once. Have a new set sitting in draw along with those air hoses. I never used a vac. I let the dust fal to ground and at end of day vac saw clean. I have air cleaner near by that scrubs the air and I used a dust mask at all times in my shop any time I have machines running. Still here to tell the story. To me those clamps are beautiful to work. There is a stop at both the back and top so no twisting of the blade as it sits in clamp. It is solid against side of clamp and also the back. I love my RBI saws and best investment for the path I took. They do not owe me a dime. Still going strong. They will get some use this winter for I have a few projects I want to tackle.  

A lot of people say the G4 is the best saw they made.. The new BM26 is real close to the same thing as the G4.. I personally like the Ultra's the best.. so glad I had the opportunity to pick up the still in box Ultra 226VS back a few years ago, and also glad I got the opportunity to experience the new BM26.. If I had to choose one of those two saws I'd sell the BM-26 and keep the Ultra.. They seem to have cheapened up the newer Hawks a bit.. still a solid saw no doubt but those Ultras are tanks.. I'd like to get my hands on a G4 just to compare to my BM.. most parts are the same parts and the only real difference I see is the g4 appears to have cast iron rear uprights where the BM26 is solid aluminum like the Ultra.. Like I said, I'm not so sure the G4 is the best.. no personal experience with it so I can't say for sure.. I also really liked that old 220VS with the round barrel clamps.. That was a good saw but I needed to make room for other tools so sold it to a member here.. Kinda wish i had kept that one too, LOL.. If I ever find a great buy on a 220VS Ultra it might find it's way into my shop and move out that new saw to someone else. 

[Scrappile]

Well, say what anyone wants. If I could have only one saw of all I have owned.  Hegner is my favorite.  Simple, with the least amount of moving parts, everything is easily maintained and repaired if necessary.  Hawk would be second, but I do think their tensioning system is kind of funky compared to Hegner.  Well, let me restate that their tensioning system is unnecessarily funky.  Several unnecessary moving parts, same with the upper arm clamping.  So it is just preference.  I just find the least amount of moving parts, the better.  I am a simple country boy.  Okay you Hawk guys,  let me have it.   

[kmmcrafts]

9 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

Well, say what anyone wants. If I could have only one saw of all I have owned.  Hegner is my favorite.  Simple, with the least amount of moving parts, everything is easily maintained and repaired if necessary.  Hawk would be second, but I do think their tensioning system is kind of funky compared to Hegner.  Well, let me restate that their tensioning system is unnecessarily funky.  Several unnecessary moving parts, same with the upper arm clamping.  So it is just preference.  I just find the least amount of moving parts, the better.  I am a simple country boy.  Okay you Hawk guys,  let me have it.   

You asked for it.. 

No seriously I don't necessarily understand your thought on more moving parts.. I have to ask what is more movement on the Hawk that the Hegner doesn't have? Both my Hawk and my Hegner have a front tension lever.. both have the rear tension adjustment lever.. both have removable blade chucks... 

Your comment really throws me off but maybe my memory of what little I've used my Hegner and have very little experience with it.. I don't remember any more or less moving parts..

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

My turn because I had a Hegner also. I did not like that spring thingy in the back. Many times that made noise. I did not like how you had to use a tool to put blade in and had to get it perfect in the clamp. There is as many moving parts on a Hegner as a RBI. As I said I never played with that clock wedge thing after initial set up and forgot all about it. I did put a piece of rubber on the arm because that wedge arm would move over to the arm and rattle against it. Simple fix. Never played with anything except up front lever. Putting in blades was a simple task. Right in front of you and not off to the side. That was the reasons I chose the RBI over both the Dewalt and Hegner as saws to keep hands down. Do not get me wrong Hegner owners should be proud of that saw because those were like tanks also and very few changes ever made on them. They got it right the very first shot out of the gun. 

[kmmcrafts]

I wouldn't say Hegner got it right the first time and made very little to no changes.. I could argue that point with Hawk.. They both have made a lot of small changes over the years.. Hawks biggest changes were the blade holders and they did use a few different motors..

Hegner now has quick clamp.. up front tension release and the rear spring thingy has changed styles.. all these changes while one might think is a minor change.. The front tension lever is made up of a whole new redesigned upper arm.. There are actually a lot of changes that went through both brands of saws. The whole body of the Hegner saw was redesigned too.. Just from a quick glance one see's too orange colored saws and close to basic shapes as they were years ago but closer look reveals completely different parts list from older saws to the current ones for both brands. 

I love the Hegner and I could see myself using that saw more if I took the time to make some minor modifications to make it more my fit and style.. such as a bit larger table, upper arm going up higher, air blower hose to a flexable hose instead of having it blow into my lap and towards me. Minor pet peeves.. but fixing this minor things is on a long way down on my list of to do's and now getting into laser and cnc side of things..

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

I wouldn't say Hegner got it right the first time and made very little to no changes.. I could argue that point with Hawk.. They both have made a lot of small changes over the years.. Hawks biggest changes were the blade holders and they did use a few different motors..

Hegner now has quick clamp.. up front tension release and the rear spring thingy has changed styles.. all these changes while one might think is a minor change.. The front tension lever is made up of a whole new redesigned upper arm.. There are actually a lot of changes that went through both brands of saws. The whole body of the Hegner saw was redesigned too.. Just from a quick glance one see's too orange colored saws and close to basic shapes as they were years ago but closer look reveals completely different parts list from older saws to the current ones for both brands. 

I love the Hegner and I could see myself using that saw more if I took the time to make some minor modifications to make it more my fit and style.. such as a bit larger table, upper arm going up higher, air blower hose to a flexable hose instead of having it blow into my lap and towards me. Minor pet peeves.. but fixing this minor things is on a long way down on my list of to do's and now getting into laser and cnc side of things..

You know scrollsaws better than I do being you take them apart so many times so will leave the design stuff to you but in my eye I see the same basic saw. The RBI has changes so much more is design and motors and arms and methods of blade mounting so Hawk wins that one for sure. Hegner made some slight changes but as you say changes were made. Hawk made more models than Hegner did. But so be it. Both are the standards of the industry in my eye. Commercial made for tough use and keep on ticking. You get what you pay for. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Pulled up some of the photos of mine when I sold it. Not sure what it says to you but yes spring is different from that zigzag to a straight coil spring. I could have changed the arm to a front lever. I forgot what the price was at the time. But I lived with turning a knob. I had the knob dialed in with a stop so not a big deal. That saw more bevel cutting than straight cutting on it. because of the relief type cutting I was doing with Berry basket patterns. They were big into that stuff.  I should have cleaned it off more. I just got done demonstrating for my neighbor. he had no idea what a scrollsaw was. he had no idea what I did and showed him some of my work which I left out in case someone wanted to see what a scrollsaw could do. Was selling the Dewalt at the same time. dewalt went first. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

Don't know the year they changed to the up front tension release or the different spring but yours shows I think 1998? or is that last digit a 3 hard to tell in the photo.. I have the same model saw made in a 2002 and I have a normal spring in the back.. and the up front tension release. I do not think they all come with the upper quick clamp.. even brand new today I think that is a upgrade that you pay extra for but I might be wrong on that.

You are correct that Hawk made more changes to clamps, arms etc... there are a few different arm designs from Hegner that most would not notice.. Either way both are great top of the line saws. I wish I knew the Hegner saws as well as I do many others.. but I just haven't researched or played around this those as much yet.  

Edited December 18, 2024 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

That saw was a 1993 saw. I do not know when I asked about upgrading the arm but it was available but not cheap. I actually like that Hegner puts the date of their saws on the nameplate. That saw took the place of my 2 speed Dremel which was the tool that launched my woodworking career. Their biggest drawback to me is the small table top. I made an auxiliary top for mine. I believe I even gave the guy the top and told him what it was. Threw in a bunch of blades and he was happy. Started getting rid of some not so used tools that year. That was 2 years ago. In background on the ground was a rigid combo belt and spindle sander. Nice tool but just did not use it much and took up space. Have some more tools going maybe this summer. Would love to get rid of my large Delta shaper. Used maybe a couple times and it ha been used as a table to store things on for many many years. Thing is a tank. Can not give that one away though. I always said when I go my family can sell entire shop to a woodworker or just leave it. The money spent in the shop is something I do not want to know. But it has been fun. 

 

One thing to point out about the Hegner is look at that motor. That is a commercial grade motor. No other saw on the market that I know of uses such a motor and that is why they can last an eternity. The parts that break down are easily replaced parts that get normal wear with a saw that has that kind of motion. All saws have these little compact motors. RBI played with their motor and many different configurations out there and knowing which ones were good or bad is not easy because them too you look at the saw it basically looks the same but those motors were a huge story. With Hegner it never was. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

I'll likely be selling off some tools soon as well, I'm cutting back on scrolling and don't really need 5 scroll saws.. and many of the other tools.. Maybe sell the bandsaw too since I rarely use it. Had one of the ridgid sanders like you mentioned and barely used it so that sold last year. It's time to move some older tools out.. probably sell one of my small lasers too, maybe both.

The CNC is a tool that I bought that will likely never pay for itself.. I've used it some but never really got into it and in order to sell it they almost have to give them away now days.. I paid close to $6000 for it and the laser attachment for it that I never did use.. water cooled spindle etc.. bunch of bits etc.. and they are lucky to bring $1300 now for the same machine.. One just sold locally that I was watching.. was listed for 3 months and I see it finally sold for 1300 the other day.. poor guy started at $3500 and kept lowing the price. I use it enough that it's worth the $1300 to keep it, LOL.. I think more people are doing laser things as they seem to hold value.. I could sell my two small lasers right now for more than I paid new.. I see most selling for dang near new prices.. What gets me is that the lasers tubes have a expire date.. even if you never use the laser the tube will go bad over time.. and how much power you send through the machine also diminishes the life if using it at max power much.. You'd think those used lasers wouldn't sell well because of this but nope.. maybe just a bunch of uninformed buyers out there.