Saw modifications

[SCROLLERNATION]

I have been around scrolling since birth.  I restore a lot of saws and I recalibrate them and resell them to someone for less cost than a new one.  Every saw has its own modification it seems.  Not always but typically what I see are a couple things.  On hawks people replace the tension knob in the back with something else and this leads to other problems.  Every saw has flywheels or counter balance weights according to the weight of factory components.  Changing this changes other things leading to motor and bearing issues bent arms etc.  on Hegners I run into a different issue.  People cut the stop off the back because they think they “are making it better”.  The workpiece seems hard to bottom feed.  On a hegner there are two ways to feed the blade.  1.  Leave it in the bottom holder and rock the clamp forward to meet the wood upon entry.  That is what the slit in the table is for.  2.  Remove the holder, flip the wood over and thread it in and flip the wood right side up and using the slot in the table place the holder in the bottom holder and then retension.  Heres what happens when you cut the stop off the back to “make it better” on your $1500+ dollar machine.   You 1. Bend the rear tension assembly $70.  Then the force moves through the arm and 2. Bends the arm in a twisting motion.  About $200+ for an arm.  Lets not forget you destroyed a c frame $190.  Now your saw doesn’t track correctly and your motor is taking a beating at the bearings and you start hearing a squeal or squeak and your pitman arm  or connector for Hegner terminology starts taking a beating and develops a crack at the end of it. To replace that its about $70 and now your control board doesn’t know what to do with the load constantly changing from vibration and your controller keeps trying to compensate and blades start breaking and your controller goes out.   Those are about $400 and a motor is about $700.
 

Cutting this off you destroyed your investment and ruined an heirloom tool.  No point in handing it down now. Another thing I see is bellows.  Stop trying to glue these on.  Bite the bullet and get a new bellows.  The noise stops, the air blows again and your in business.  Hot dry climates expect a 5 year life span. $10 a year. Gluing them on you also ruin the bellows base which is another $7.  Lets not forget about shipping if its one part at a time while you troubleshoot…. I have rebuilt them all and only two saws reign supreme for reliability and durability. the others have issues of thier own and are a mess whether its customer service and parts or speed controllers, arms and bearings. 
 

1.  The Hegner its built better and cost of maintenance is lower, even though parts are higher its lower cost of operation and a better investment overall. With daily and proper use you should only be buying bellows and the nylon pieces for your forward tension clamp.  2.  The scrollmate or PS wood machine.  Even with bent or twisted components its a champ and runs. Ive only had to replace a couple bearings after 4000+ hours of heavy abuse.  An old man in my life bought a new Hegner in 1998. Never modified nothing and in 2019 he replaced his rear tension assembly.  Everyday since he bought that hegner he sat behind it almost all day.  Hes replaced a bellows once and the nylon tension assy a couple times.  Today he is still alive and scrolling strong on that Hegner he bought all those years ago. His cost of operation is minimal because he left alone amd learned proper operation and tensioning.  So before you buy or modify keep in mind the cost your choices will make you in the future.  To avoid headache. Avoid the double parallel mechanisms and the Hawk saws.  The engineering just isn’t there.  
 

Realignment is a pain and time consuming.  Moving the stop down also causes the same problem.  Save yourself a headache and leave well alone on your saws.  

Edited Friday at 01:17 AM by SCROLLERNATION
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[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I see this is basically a testimonial for the Hegner saw which is fine. I had one and yes they are built to last. They are a saw with the scroller in mind. never heard of people doing the modifications you mention but I assume it is possible. You read many times here how many people take saws apart to fix, and how many times questions come up about how to fix. I agree with you if something breaks repair with OEM parts. They were designed for the saw. I do disagree with you as far as stay away from RBI saws. These saws fall in same catagory as the Hegner. They were built for the scroller. yes they probably went through more changes over the years but I have 2 early 1990's saws and they work as well today as they did when bought. I have a ton of hours on them. and did no heavy maintenance on them    because they did not need any. I did replace a few parts that wear out but no big deal. The parallel arm saws are all so much alike and probably many are built in the same plants. I agree they have a greater tendency to break down more and quicker. But these are mid range saws and are still a step up from many cheap lower end saws. They fit the needs of those who are not in the scrolling business but still enjoy the hobby. They are affordable and maybe do not bring high resale value they serve their purpose. Take care of any tool will allow it to last longer for sure. I believe what counts alot is the aftermarket customer service and parts dept. You get that with saws like Hegner and RBI. Just a observation from your post. 

[Wichman]

Scrollernation, I agree with most of your post. I have and use a 22" Hegner that I bought new.

     I would like your thoughts on the use of spiral blades in a Hegner vs a parallel link saw. The way I am seeing it is my Hegner has 13" from the blade to the arm bearing; a typical parallel saw has about 2" to the first bearing. It seems to me that this would cause more wear and tear on the Hegner not withstanding the superior bearings in the Hegner, if spiral blades were the primary blades used. 

Thoughts?

[SCROLLERNATION]

8 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I see this is basically a testimonial for the Hegner saw which is fine. I had one and yes they are built to last. They are a saw with the scroller in mind. never heard of people doing the modifications you mention but I assume it is possible. You read many times here how many people take saws apart to fix, and how many times questions come up about how to fix. I agree with you if something breaks repair with OEM parts. They were designed for the saw. I do disagree with you as far as stay away from RBI saws. These saws fall in same catagory as the Hegner. They were built for the scroller. yes they probably went through more changes over the years but I have 2 early 1990's saws and they work as well today as they did when bought. I have a ton of hours on them. and did no heavy maintenance on them    because they did not need any. I did replace a few parts that wear out but no big deal. The parallel arm saws are all so much alike and probably many are built in the same plants. I agree they have a greater tendency to break down more and quicker. But these are mid range saws and are still a step up from many cheap lower end saws. They fit the needs of those who are not in the scrolling business but still enjoy the hobby. They are affordable and maybe do not bring high resale value they serve their purpose. Take care of any tool will allow it to last longer for sure. I believe what counts alot is the aftermarket customer service and parts dept. You get that with saws like Hegner and RBI. Just a observation from your post. 

More like a testimonial to what works best in the long run.  A saw thats reliable backed by a reliable vendor of parts. And quality consistent parts at that.  I love all the saws.  The Hawk hum is soothing. Used to be my absolute favorite until it went down the drain.  The adjustment of the double parralel system with its easy blade chuck system awesome stuff.  If RBI was still RBI then yes hawks are great.  But with the current manufacturer nope.  Ive seen the hawk change from belt drive to ultras with ac motors then dc motors then G4s and now the BM. I have even seen four different shades of red.  The best saw is the one thats reliable and has quality support. On hawks you should only have to change the rear pivot wedge and thats after hours of lubricated use tensioning properly and the front cam and the arm bearings.  
Simple always wins.  I have a lot of Hawks even one that was mine originally. It still looks and runs new.  But again maintenance and proper use.  Enjoy those RBI’s! Have fun. 

[SCROLLERNATION]

6 hours ago, Wichman said:

Scrollernation, I agree with most of your post. I have and use a 22" Hegner that I bought new.

     I would like your thoughts on the use of spiral blades in a Hegner vs a parallel link saw. The way I am seeing it is my Hegner has 13" from the blade to the arm bearing; a typical parallel saw has about 2" to the first bearing. It seems to me that this would cause more wear and tear on the Hegner not withstanding the superior bearings in the Hegner, if spiral blades were the primary blades used. 

Thoughts?

Use what works for you and brings you joy. As long as the saws are working as they should its all the same.  Hegners don’t have arm bearings.  They have bushings that get lubricated thats part of why they run so smooth and are so reliable and that design can handle thrust loading from the side well. Also a reason they are less maintenance and lower operating cost.

What I like about the EX series though is that the motor is adjustable so you can get that blade perfectly vertical! Excellent for those blades.
 

But again you have a Hegner so you have that blade stroke already and a removable plastic insert that you can chew up instead of your nice table!  

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, SCROLLERNATION said:

More like a testimonial to what works best in the long run.  A saw thats reliable backed by a reliable vendor of parts. And quality consistent parts at that.  I love all the saws.  The Hawk hum is soothing. Used to be my absolute favorite until it went down the drain.  The adjustment of the double parralel system with its easy blade chuck system awesome stuff.  If RBI was still RBI then yes hawks are great.  But with the current manufacturer nope.  Ive seen the hawk change from belt drive to ultras with ac motors then dc motors then G4s and now the BM. I have even seen four different shades of red.  The best saw is the one thats reliable and has quality support. On hawks you should only have to change the rear pivot wedge and thats after hours of lubricated use tensioning properly and the front cam and the arm bearings.  
Simple always wins.  I have a lot of Hawks even one that was mine originally. It still looks and runs new.  But again maintenance and proper use.  Enjoy those RBI’s! Have fun. 

Well I do not know about any of the newer RBI saws because mine have lasted so long and will continue to. But I have sort of put scrolling on the side an do alot more lathe work. The only things IO ad to change on the RIB was the plastic bottom blade holder and made them from some spring steel so that solved that. Never touched those wedges after I zeroed in the saw first try. Just never saw a need and they are as sharp edged as first bought. The other thing I replaced on both saws was the front blade tension lever which does wear out but easy fix. Also had some bad blade holding blocks because the pin bent and threw off the blade travel. Took some research to find that one. But again simple fixes. I enjoyed the use of those saws and they made me alot of money over the years. Have fun with your Hegner. I did not like them but had one before I bought the Rbi saws. Do not like their blade system. Very reliable saw though. We all fall in love with the saw we grow into and nothing wrong with that. This happens with all tools. I can go into wood lathe likes and dislikes too now that I have used them for quite a few years now. 

[kmmcrafts]

33 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Well I do not know about any of the newer RBI saws because mine have lasted so long and will continue to. But I have sort of put scrolling on the side an do alot more lathe work. The only things IO ad to change on the RIB was the plastic bottom blade holder and made them from some spring steel so that solved that. Never touched those wedges after I zeroed in the saw first try. Just never saw a need and they are as sharp edged as first bought. The other thing I replaced on both saws was the front blade tension lever which does wear out but easy fix. Also had some bad blade holding blocks because the pin bent and threw off the blade travel. Took some research to find that one. But again simple fixes. I enjoyed the use of those saws and they made me alot of money over the years. Have fun with your Hegner. I did not like them but had one before I bought the Rbi saws. Do not like their blade system. Very reliable saw though. We all fall in love with the saw we grow into and nothing wrong with that. This happens with all tools. I can go into wood lathe likes and dislikes too now that I have used them for quite a few years now. 

Never used the highly rated Hawk G4 but they're built similar to the newest BM series saw which I have one of.. I personally say the old Ultras are the better saws that I have used.. G4 with the cast iron uprights I think were built better / more solid than the new BM series saw.. but again, I've never used or even seen in person a G4.. 

Again, hard to beat those older RBI Ultra saws.. even the old round barrel clamp style saw I had I feel was a great and well built saw.. Nothing against the new BM series I have but they did cheapen up those saws with some very thin aluminum rocker? whatever it's called.. the part that connects the motor to the lower arm with a bearing in each end of it is much smaller and chintzy compared to the older saws but it's held up to my 500 hours of use so I guess there is that. There are some parts that they made from plastic that used to be machined aluminum, such as the angle bracket mechanism is all plastic on the BM series.. I don't mess with the angle really so it also has held up, but possible wear and tare if someone was moving the angle all the time.. 

Like my Hegner too other than the small wimpy little table that could hardly hold a small pancake, LOL.. IF they could give a larger table option like the Hawk had I'd bet most people would upgrade their table on a Hegner.. Not really any complaints on them from me other than the table. In fact.. be a really tough call for me between the Hawk and Hegner if Hegner did have a large table option... I'd probably go with Hegner then.. for sure would if the new BM series is all that was out there.. but between the Ultra and Hegner with the newer up front tension system and the quick clamp that Hegner has with the large table.. that'd be a tough call for me. Oh almost forgot the other thing on the Hegner is why in the world would they put the dust blower in the upper arm so it blows the dust directly at the operator is way beyond my comprehension.. that is about the poorest engineering design I've ever seen..I like that it's in the arm and out of the users way but gotta be a way to blow it to one side or the other rather than in my lap. LOL  

[BadBob]

I have both an EX-21 and a Pegas saw. I don't care if I have to rebuild them once a year. The speed and simplicity of the blade changes and tensoning (set once and forget it) wins for me. It is why I purchased the EX-21.

[Scrappile]

This all sounds like the old Ford/Chevy argument to me.  The saw that works best for you and you get the most enjoyment out of is the right one for you.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, Scrappile said:

This all sounds like the old Ford/Chevy argument to me.  The saw that works best for you and you get the most enjoyment out of is the right one for you.

Yeap!!! Chevy fan here.

[Scrappile]

4 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Yeap!!! Chevy fan here.

Oh, friend.  We just don't agree on anything!

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 minute ago, Scrappile said:

Oh, friend.  We just don't agree on anything!

Guess not. Grew up with GM in the blood. Wrenched on many GM vehicles over the years. Did work in a Ford plant many years ago. 

[OCtoolguy]

GM fan here too. Went to GM training center for a year to be a Buick mechanic. Back when we were called mechanics.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

47 minutes ago, OCtoolguy said:

GM fan here too. Went to GM training center for a year to be a Buick mechanic. Back when we were called mechanics.

You are a Tech now. Everyone in the trades is now a Tech. I wonder if that means more $$$$

[rjweb]

FORD, " fix or repair daily ", chevy all the way, RJ

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

4 hours ago, rjweb said:

FORD, " fix or repair daily ", chevy all the way, RJ

The whole quote is " Fix Or Repair Daily, or Find On the Road Dead" 

[kmmcrafts]

GM for the most part but there are a couple ford models I'd be okay with.. and also a few Dodges.. guess I'm not too hard core loyal to any one brand. I used to be only GM but then the right deals come along and being a body shop guy and a shade tree mechanic of sorts.. I've bought and owned about every brand out there.. most I didn't own long enough to actually drive it any length of time.. more of a buyer of broken or totalled cars and repair them to sell.. some I would drive for a summer or a few months while others I only repaired and drove around the block a few times, LOL..

Trucks on the other hand.. specifically the diesels.. I'd say Dodge with the Cummins would be my first choice and more specifically the earlier 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation ones 1989 - 2006.. you can keep any of them that have that DEF stuff, LOL and then the 7.3 Powerstroke Fords.. Not been around the Duramax much so I really don't know a lot about those.. Neighbor had one that had all sorts of trouble and any of the diesels are not cheap to repair so I've always been a little skittish on the Duramax. 

BTW, how'd we go from saw modifications to car brands, LOL.. 

Back to saws.. I'm not a fan of modifying saws either.. I've rebuilt many and always used OEM parts or better than OEM when it come to bearings.. The only mod I really support is the Pegas clamps on the various models that they fit on.. and the Jim Dandy easy lift on the DeWalt.. I see people change up to larger thumb screws etc.. and while I don't always agree with doing that and I wouldn't personally do it.. However.. some folks have arthritis or other health issues and it's either modify it or give up sawing.. in that case modify it and enjoy your saw.. Most folks that modify the saws are just making it easier for them and many are not production cutting so the modification likely won't cause any issue for them.. IF nobody took to modifying their saws we'd all still be using the treadle style saws as many new inventions and features these saws have now days came from a user that seen a better way of doing it.. an engineer can always put something out on the drawing board but the end user is the one that fine tunes and perfects it.. so modify on... 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Well if you want to get back to the word modifying, I think we all modify a saw to fit our needs. As to fixing them that is not modifying. It is repairing. Modifying is adding a larger table top to a Hegner saw which I did and also did that to my RBI saws. Adding dust collection to a saw, adding lights and magnifiers, Adding a lift kit or system, adding a larger thumb screw, adding pegas blade holders and things like this. You can say this about other tools to. Using different parts than OEM ones is still just repairing the tool. You are not doing anything to make it more suitable for you. You say you maybe using better bearings or so but that is your opinion and again you are fixing a problem. So we want to get technical.   

[Rolf]

I have not been on here for a while. This discussion caught my eye. We all end up with a saw that hopefully meets our needs. When I joined our newly formed club in 2004 most of the "seasoned" scrollers had Hegners the rest of us had an assortment. My wife bought me a New Delta SS350 simple great clamps, A year later I bought myself a Hawk G4-26. Still have it. For me the clamps were easier to use than the Hegners, you could easily top feed the Hawk. I still have it but it is going to my nephew shortly. I now have a used EX-16 with Pegas clamps (travel saw) and a new Pegas 21". I like and prefer the tilting arm vs table for bevel cutting. I do maintain all of my own saws. The Hawk is and has been awesome. and so far the Ex and the new Pegas are behaving themselves.

Edited yesterday at 12:55 PM by Rolf