hotshot

This gist of the conversation, and probably the part that Matters is the sentiment that the stable line of saws that we were getting from Taiwan is that very same product now offered by everyone but General, and as a huge fan of the EX design, I'm thrilled about that, and just recently purchased the 16" King. But, in trying to establish the "Original Manufacturer" as being in Taiwan, there is a huge logical problem: "The many manufacturing nuances and extreme tolerances make these saws virtually impossible to copy and have them function as they were originally designed." and the "Original Manufacturer" . . . . "Note, when I use the term “original”, I refer to original manufacturer, original design, original components, parts, motors, and specifications." The Original Designs and "Manufacturer" was "Somerville Design and Mfg"and the original Parts, designs, and etc were made in Canada. That EX21 was Purple and had nothing whatsoever to do with Taiwan. So, not only was Taiwan not the original manufacturer, they weren't even close. I will also say, the complex part of the saw was being made by Sommverville long before the EX-21. After the move to Taiwan, the only physical design change was the disastrous Dust Collection additions. (The change in paint was nice, but is not a technical change). So, arguably, the pre anniversary addition was the better saw. Another note concerning that complex design, in the lawsuit between Somerville Design and Manufacturing vs J. Phillip Humfrey in 1999, Sommerville stated in reference to this core/complex technology: "Sommerville had no proprietary rights in it. The mechanism on which it was based, the parallel link, had been patented in 1870." So even Sommerville took that core technical design that had been in existence for over 100 years, and made it work in his saws. So when General gained ownership of EX, they did that "Virtually Impossible" move of Manufacturing to Taiwan. Yep, I'm sure there was some glitches in the early samples, but they got the Kinks worked out. Dewalt, which has that same parallel link mechanism, was also made by Sommerville, and though the move overseas produced some Quality issues, that saw certainly survived. So, the same challenge that the Taiwan Manufacturer faced when they had to re-create the assembly of the saw originally made in Canada, the China manufacture has that same challenge. Whether or not they will be able to accomplish that feat as did the Taiwan manufacturer, well that remains to be seen. The best part of the the whole story, that was left out, was the whole drama resulting from the sell to DMT, which is pretty well a "Paper Company" in Seattle with the real owner in China. China and Taiwan are not getting along so well these days, and that was the real issue that caused the Manufacturer to bypass General and go it alone. How do I know this . . . I can't say because I'm not throwing my source under the bus, but they are pretty darn close to the situation.

I think you always risk offending someone. The key here is, if that saw if only worth $100 to you because of risk and condition, there is no way to get to 100 if you bid on a price that may not be considered a lowball. Anyone can take offense, but other than a little cussing, you don't risk a lot by bidding what you believe something is worth to you, regardless of the possible perception of the seller. If you hang out a little in a Pawnshop, those guys give prices that are "worth it to them", and they do offend, but the seller can always walk.

I don't agree that establishing value and risk on any saw is "just opinion" as there are very solid factors that influence risk and capability for each of these choices. No doubt there are some that are religious about their saws, but I think it is easy enough to take that into account, otherwise, we should just all buy Ryobi. All that said, good luck with your new saw.

I would add that craigslist works on the haggle system. Would you buy a rusty dw788 for $100, $80. You can always wait a bit (so that the seller knows he is not going to sell it at that price), then make an offer. He says no, then you are no worse off. When you see a shiny table on Craigslist, you don't know that the seller didn't clean it up immediately before listing it. It is easy enough to test the machine out to see if it runs good, and if it is shallow surface rust, 10 minutes with a sander would have it shiny and new looking again. Not that the Rust wouldn't concern me, but at a certain price point, if it runs good, I can live with that risk.

Top feeder . . . most of the time. It is nice in fretwork to just lift the arm and lower it and the blade right into the next hole. Leaning over to look under the workpiece and fish the blade up is great for some folks, but I'm too fat/old I guess. Also, for me at least, it's easy to see the hole against the backdrop of the white pattern. If I'm looking up from under the project, the holes aren't as obvious, and when I do find it, I often end up coming up through the wrong hole. But the advantage of bottom feeding, if you have a blade that fits the hole tightly, the blade doesn't catch going that direction. The second advantage of bottom feeding, is that you only have to thread one hole. When you top feed, you also have to be lined up with the hole in the table. Regardless of what you chose, going to any of these better saws will give you blade change improvements that will seem like a miracle compared to you current Wen.

I agree, pass on this one and keep looking.

That saw is pretty near 2 grand, so I would start low and go as high as 5 or 600.

I buy my #72 from Sloans, which is the smallest bit they sell. Some projects require smaller than this, so on those I use bit from Amazon.

This is only a problem with jewelers blades. The slight bend shown in the video doesn’t hurt the blade.

When I got my King, and got all setup at the shop, clamped down, blades layer out, 6+ reading glasses balanced on my nose . . . . when I went to tension the blade, I knew by feel, the tension was way too high, and pop, blade broke before tension was near full. The normal way of loading and tensioning the blades was never going to work. The shorter arm on the 16" makes a lot of difference in leverage. So, my Jeweler friends have woken up to the fact that a scroll saw can possibly replace their Jewelers saws, and a lot of them are looking for a saw, and I've been recommending the 16" which fits their project types perfectly (and is cheaper). So of course, we don't want folks messing with that back knob, but the answer was pretty simple, but hard to explain so I did a video. I which I had a "Presenters" type voice, but unfortunately, all I have in mine. Anyway, here is the short video demonstration geared to my Jeweler friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpvnN9bXw58

Good think I saved that outer ring :-)

After I cut this pattern, I started to wonder what it would look like if I "Freed" the pattern from the outside coin. I don't know if it is better or not, but I like it. I pictured the before and after. (I tried a marathon session to try to finish most of this in one session, so the cutting started getting a little sloppy as I fatigued and started to hurt. If I ever do it again, I'll cut it over days instead of hours. There are 62 cuts in the initial design and cut on an Eisenhower. This is somewhat of an optical illusion, your eye might immediately see flowers inside of circles, but if you looks closely, the whole pattern is just interwoven circles.

Just avoid the new Excaliburs if you want to stay with the original factory. That said, I don't know that there is anything wrong with the new Excaliburs. Some brave sole needs to test the waters . . . . King/Excelsior, Seyco, Jet, Carbatec, Axminster, and Pegas are all still made in Taiwan and are the safe bet right now.

I don't think discontinued is the word. Part of General is now Chinese owned. China and Taiwan are not really best of buddies, so the Taiwan Manufacture just kept on making the saws for everyone but General. General had to bring up a whole new production line in China, which they did, and those saws are now on sale at Home Depot and Rockler. So, it looks like two completely different manufacturers are making the saw. At this point, since King/Excelsior/Carbatec/Axminster/Pegas are still coming from the same factory, and the Excalibur line in new, I think I would trust the Taiwan saws over the Excalibur branded saws. So, all that to say, you can buy a brand new Excalibur by General today, but I'm not sure you would want to. And if you want to by parts from the manufacturer that originally made your saw, that would be the Taiwanese flavor, or King in the U.S.

Hegners at Woodcraft . . . wow, would have never believed that. Makes sense though, if they sell FesTools, why not Hegner.

With Stand was $600 before tax. I didn't need the stand, but they include that free for now.

Like Seyco and Hawk and Hegner, you would have to either ship it to a King Service Center, or your could work with them remote. It is parts compatible with Excalibur, so if I was just needing parts, I could get those though either side. There is a two year warranty from date of purchase for non-commercial use. As far as being the same as the EX, oh yeah, it is the same all right. The company never quit making them. The real question is, "Is the current Ex" still the same old EX. I think the current "Excaliburs" are being manufacturing in China, meaning they had to bring up a new production line there, and we know how that goes. In WoodCraft, back in their storage room, I saw an original EX-21 still in the box.

Nickel test, well it did pretty good, at least with the coin placed mid cutting zone. When you see a nickel test, remember, the further forward you go, the more vibration. Although the saw was very surprisingly smooth, even at full out, it wouldn't have passed if the coin would have been on the front of the table. Still, with no stand, pretty freaking impressive if you ask me!

I already have a Type 1 788, and have been doing all my coin cutting with it recently. It is a great saw, but portable it is not.

Yeah, and right now they offer the stand for free, so I have that shoved under the bed, and have the feet installed.

So, had a friend said he might be able to use the 14" Hegner, and I was excited to get rid of it, so I shipped it out a few days ago. So with one saw removed from the stable . . . . .I've been looking for a good portable saw to use at the store, sales booth, or whatever. At the end of the day, for what I do, I don't really have a lot of choices as I don't believe anything besides a parallel link saw is going to work for my style/type of cutting. That brings the field down really really quickly. I was curious if the 16 inch King/Excalibur would have vibration low enough to be useable without the stand, so I drove down to Woodcraft to see if they would plug it in so I could see for myself. Well . . . . . . I now have a King 16". It is still heavier/more awkward than I would like, but I believe it is my smallest viable option and it runs reasonably smooth without the stand. I'm playing with it a bit, but it should be ready for primetime when I have to work the store this weekend.

Wedo, I have to confess that this wasn't my original idea. Believe it or not, in the metal crafting circle, this is "a thing." If you are on facebook, check out this group: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=954370807969797&ref=br_rs This group is very eye opening. The one thing I bring to the table there is that I use the Scroll saw instead of a Jewelers saw. I think that is "Disrupting" their comfort zone a little :-). They have a lot of sweat equity built up in their current tools, so the entrance of the scroll saw into their world will be interesting to watch.

I would have to hold the camera in my mouth :-). Holding the spoon was Awkward beyond belief, so the film would have to be a "Comedy."

It wasn't pretty and I need to figure out a jig. I held my finger under the side I was cutting, between the spoon and the table to keep it up, and if the blade "catches" and pulls down really hard, the finger gets mooshed a bit.

Well, don't act surprised . . . . cut on my Dewalt. Yes, this is a literal spoon.