Pricing

[3Dface]

Ok... I am at a loss.

We scrollers do things most of the public either don't or can't. Most don't think twice about about dropping 20 to $30 on a picture of someone else's dog. Or $20 on a 3in tall piece of plastic that looks like a hero they like made by a machine. But when it comes to our art of that same hero they balk at that same price for an 8 inch figure.

I don't scroll to make money, o sell to make only enough to pay for what i spent to make it and maybe a dollar or 2 to buy more wood.

How do you find the meeting point? It seems that if I only charged minimum wage for my time not counting materials i am still out of the price point.

Any advice could help.

Thank you, Chris

[kmmcrafts]

Guess it depends on the group of people you market the products to. I charge a hourly rate.. and put my prices at that rate.. If I cannot find a way to make a piece fast enough so it can be somewhat affordable then I don't make that piece again.. I sell online so the market is worldwide.. some say location plays a big part of what people have to spend on things.. I just know that I'm not working for free nor am I one to work just for more supplies.. Time spent wasted is time you'll never get back.. some are happy with just giving a piece of their time and getting a smile from someone.. I like getting paid for my time and getting a happy customer as well.. many come back for more items the next year.. Guess there is no right or wrong price.. it's what your customers are willing to pay..  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Chris that is a question that only you can honestly answer for yourself. I have no idea your situation and how old you are and if you are retired and doing this for the enjoyment of the hobby or someone looking to make a living off this or a supplemental income with it. This answers can help you decide how you approach your fees. How serious will you get??  Selling at shows require tax implications as do selling on line. Doing small church or school shows you can get away from this. Your audience is now limited and the asking prices match the venues. Get to know your client and location plays a huge role. After awhile it becomes second nature. I do not believe in hourly wages for what we do because you will never get paid the true value of your time because you can not truthfully tell how much time you have into making and selling a piece. Example. How much per hour to make, now add the time to get material, prep material, finish project, if shipping (boxing and packaging and sending) Computer work to get shipping labels and the list goes on and on. If selling carting to and from show and setting up and taking down.  Remember you are a one person factory and need to do the work of many and those people would get a salary too.  So for me people that say they charge by the hour I laugh at because they are a slave unto themselves. 

I work off approximations. I know from years of experience a certain size project with a clock insert cost X$ and go from there. Change to a more expensive wood the price goes up. Go to a bigger size that requires more materials then the price goes up. If the cutting is very intricate then the price changes. But in my mind I work off a fixed price to start with. Now over years because materials go up then your price range changes too. Can not and never will give you or anyone a formula because in my eye there is none. Some people will give you a basic number but they are doing what I am but not committing to a number. Not much more I can add and I know it does not answer your question but best I got. Good luck and happy scrolling.

[3Dface]

2 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Guess it depends on the group of people you market the products to. I charge a hourly rate.. and put my prices at that rate.. If I cannot find a way to make a piece fast enough so it can be somewhat affordable then I don't make that piece again.. I sell online so the market is worldwide.. some say location plays a big part of what people have to spend on things.. I just know that I'm not working for free nor am I one to work just for more supplies.. Time spent wasted is time you'll never get back.. some are happy with just giving a piece of their time and getting a smile from someone.. I like getting paid for my time and getting a happy customer as well.. many come back for more items the next year.. Guess there is no right or wrong price.. it's what your customers are willing to pay..  

thanks kev,

maybe it is because i am still new to selling. i started and continue doing this because it brings me joy. i have sold custom portraits for decent money but not so good at shows. how do you promote your sites? i have one but not a lot of traffic.

[3Dface]

22 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Chris that is a question that only you can honestly answer for yourself. I have no idea your situation and how old you are and if you are retired and doing this for the enjoyment of the hobby or someone looking to make a living off this or a supplemental income with it. This answers can help you decide how you approach your fees. How serious will you get??  Selling at shows require tax implications as do selling on line. Doing small church or school shows you can get away from this. Your audience is now limited and the asking prices match the venues. Get to know your client and location plays a huge role. After awhile it becomes second nature. I do not believe in hourly wages for what we do because you will never get paid the true value of your time because you can not truthfully tell how much time you have into making and selling a piece. Example. How much per hour to make, now add the time to get material, prep material, finish project, if shipping (boxing and packaging and sending) Computer work to get shipping labels and the list goes on and on. If selling carting to and from show and setting up and taking down.  Remember you are a one person factory and need to do the work of many and those people would get a salary too.  So for me people that say they charge by the hour I laugh at because they are a slave unto themselves. 

I work off approximations. I know from years of experience a certain size project with a clock insert cost X$ and go from there. Change to a more expensive wood the price goes up. Go to a bigger size that requires more materials then the price goes up. If the cutting is very intricate then the price changes. But in my mind I work off a fixed price to start with. Now over years because materials go up then your price range changes too. Can not and never will give you or anyone a formula because in my eye there is none. Some people will give you a basic number but they are doing what I am but not committing to a number. Not much more I can add and I know it does not answer your question but best I got. Good luck and happy scrolling.

hi john,

thanks for your input. i work a full time job and scroll on my days off. as i told kev i have done well on custom portraits. i have done 2 shows now and made back my investment but am definitely not getting rich. i have already paid for booth space for 2 more shows. if i do not do better i will not do another i have to pay to be in.

[innar20]

My point of wiew. 

Is it hobby or full time job? 

For my is it hobby. Hobby must take money away. It feels good to make people happy. And if i get paid sometimes - thats good. 

Chasing money with hobby.... Then you have no hobby. You have two full time jobs. Some point you must figure out - which job is more important. Scrolling or... 

Edit. 

"You can't adore two gods at once."

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by innar20

[tgiro]

First I have to say that my wood working is a hobby. Both the intarsia and the segmented turning are purely to keep me from vegetating in a lazy boy. I like doing what I do and I do it a lot. Thus, it piles up and we go to craft shows.

Generally - figure out what you want to make per hour. Let's say you want to make $15 per hour. You have a 12"X18" piece of BB Ply and want to cut 3" ornaments, for a total of 24 ornaments. It takes 8 hours to rip the 3" squares, stack them, apply patterns, cut them, and finally apply a finish. 8 X 15 = $120.

Now add 25% markup for materials, supplies, electricity, etc. 25% of $120 = $30  - - -  $120 + $30 = $150.

$150 / 24 (ornaments) = $6.25 per ornament

Finally - Do Not Negotiate. You aren't running a flea market. If you want to have a sale to get rid of some things that haven sold, that's fine.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

11 hours ago, 3Dface said:

hi john,

thanks for your input. i work a full time job and scroll on my days off. as i told kev i have done well on custom portraits. i have done 2 shows now and made back my investment but am definitely not getting rich. i have already paid for booth space for 2 more shows. if i do not do better i will not do another i have to pay to be in.

2 shows and you are throwing in the towel???? Chris this is obvious a hobby for you being you are working. If portraits are your main go to project then you have already narrowed your customer base. Some people can do this such as Iggy here who does puzzles but he has a such a large variety to choose from which makes it possible to have one theme. I had found over my years of doing this portraits did not do well for me. When I went to clocks then things picked up because people always need a clock. My point is try to diversify so you touch more of an audience. Also it takes some time and many shows to really get a foothold in the craft circuit market. People see you at more events for longer periods of time they begin to trust you and follow you. Your customers become repeat customers and word of mouth is now an advertising tool under your belt. You can try increasing your prices till you find that saturation point and believe me your sales will tell you when you reached that point. As far a selling on line that is a whole other field and will let others who have more experience advise you there but you think doing shows is alot of work, try selling on line and you will get a lesson in a hurry. Good luck.  

[kmmcrafts]

The hourly wage is only laughable when the person isn't calculating everything.. Estimated times can be just as laughable because you're estimate can be way off.. 

I don't seem to think it matters how you charge... per hour or estimated... the problem is people don't take their time and wear and tear on machines etc into account and I haven't really even seen anyone charging what I think they should be.. BUT who am I to set the price bar? As long as the customers are spending and you're happy with the money received then that's the bottom line.. I just know that I'm not going to work for free or minimum wage either.. I'll find other stuff to make or shut down the business and start something else up.. 

To make money at it you pretty much have to think production all the time.. I'm always modifying designs to cut from thin stock to glue to backers etc where the design might call for 3/4"  etc etc.. I make clock bases just on my table saw and cut strips 2-1/4 wide and cut to length on my chop saw.. and sand the rounded corners on my belt / disc sander.. much faster than cutting them on the scroll saw.. Time is money.. this is why I do not fool around with the puzzles as Iggy and others do.. They are great sellers... BUT.. not very profitable either.. for instance $25 a puzzle.. can't stack cut.. on a good day you might get 1.5 puzzles cut per hour.. that's start to finish from sanding the board, applying the patterns and cutting etc then finishing packaging etc etc.. I doubt one can consistently do 2 per hour start to finish.. so $50 per hour charge -materials- all of them printer ink, shelf liner, paper, spray glue etc etc buy the time you deduct everything you at  best maybe on a good day $25 -30 an hour..pay vendor fees etc.. time for set up - pack up and setting at the shows for several hours.. Takes that $25 - 30 down to about minimum wage real quick..

Stack cutting Christmas ornaments.. 6-12 per hour.. sell for $16-22 per ornament.. start doing the math on that.. one sheet of paper ( pattern) makes 4-6 ornaments.. that ink and paper cost might be minimal but see how much difference choosing a good selling product with just as much variety of different themes etc etc.. I make about $150 -200 per hour off ornaments without the expenses deducted.. but not a lot of expenses.. BBply is $12 a sheet how many animal puzzles out of a $12 board. There are different ways to make things with the scroll saw and be able to make a decent profit.. My point with this is.. IF you're wanting to make money at it.. you'll need to think through what you want to sell and what kind of profit you're wanting to make.. and if it's even a sell-able product.. My ornaments are the bread and butter to my business.. I sold about 2300 ornaments last year and around 112 clocks and maybe a couple handsful. of other products.. I only started selling clocks because Christmas ornaments are a big seller for about 4 months.. then the other 8 months is dead...  the more traffic a website gets the higher it ranks in searches.. so I had to sell clocks to offset the ornaments and sort of bring traffic into the site year round.. 

Will I get rich doing this? NO But also I've been a stay at home dad for 22 years.. try finding a job without a work history and being out of the loop for 22 years.. yeah, I've always ran some sort of part time business or side hustle.. but finding fixable work ( still have one child I'm schooling ) that works with my scheduled that I need right now for another couple years until my kids are done with school etc.. I may go find a day job then.. but for now.. $30,000 - 32, 000 a year after expenses.. I can't get a part time job with flexible hours and make that kind of money so I'll be doing this for at least a couple more years..

JT mentioned time spend going to get materials etc.. I just wondered if anyone actually counts the time they spend traveling to work back and forth everyday into their annual income? Got a friend that quit his job for another job that is 20 miles farther drive each way.. for $0.50 per hour more money.. I'm guessing but I think the added drive time and wear on the car was probably going to eat up that added income.. Just my 2 cents worth.. I don't have to drive to work at all .. and the miles getting supplies I get a $0.55 per mile credit on my taxes.. I drive less than 1000 miles a year for business so it's not adding up to much but, hey.. at least I don't spend 1- 1.5 hours a day driving to and from work, LOL.. BUT.. I will say my boss is a jerk about missing days and being late to work  had to take myself into the office and give myself a verbal warning about being late 3 days in a row last week..     

            

[3Dface]

3 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

2 shows and you are throwing in the towel???? Chris this is obvious a hobby for you being you are working. If portraits are your main go to project then you have already narrowed your customer base. Some people can do this such as Iggy here who does puzzles but he has a such a large variety to choose from which makes it possible to have one theme. I had found over my years of doing this portraits did not do well for me. When I went to clocks then things picked up because people always need a clock. My point is try to diversify so you touch more of an audience. Also it takes some time and many shows to really get a foothold in the craft circuit market. People see you at more events for longer periods of time they begin to trust you and follow you. Your customers become repeat customers and word of mouth is now an advertising tool under your belt. You can try increasing your prices till you find that saturation point and believe me your sales will tell you when you reached that point. As far a selling on line that is a whole other field and will let others who have more experience advise you there but you think doing shows is alot of work, try selling on line and you will get a lesson in a hurry. Good luck.  

 

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

The hourly wage is only laughable when the person isn't calculating everything.. Estimated times can be just as laughable because you're estimate can be way off.. 

I don't seem to think it matters how you charge... per hour or estimated... the problem is people don't take their time and wear and tear on machines etc into account and I haven't really even seen anyone charging what I think they should be.. BUT who am I to set the price bar? As long as the customers are spending and you're happy with the money received then that's the bottom line.. I just know that I'm not going to work for free or minimum wage either.. I'll find other stuff to make or shut down the business and start something else up.. 

To make money at it you pretty much have to think production all the time.. I'm always modifying designs to cut from thin stock to glue to backers etc where the design might call for 3/4"  etc etc.. I make clock bases just on my table saw and cut strips 2-1/4 wide and cut to length on my chop saw.. and sand the rounded corners on my belt / disc sander.. much faster than cutting them on the scroll saw.. Time is money.. this is why I do not fool around with the puzzles as Iggy and others do.. They are great sellers... BUT.. not very profitable either.. for instance $25 a puzzle.. can't stack cut.. on a good day you might get 1.5 puzzles cut per hour.. that's start to finish from sanding the board, applying the patterns and cutting etc then finishing packaging etc etc.. I doubt one can consistently do 2 per hour start to finish.. so $50 per hour charge -materials- all of them printer ink, shelf liner, paper, spray glue etc etc buy the time you deduct everything you at  best maybe on a good day $25 -30 an hour..pay vendor fees etc.. time for set up - pack up and setting at the shows for several hours.. Takes that $25 - 30 down to about minimum wage real quick..

Stack cutting Christmas ornaments.. 6-12 per hour.. sell for $16-22 per ornament.. start doing the math on that.. one sheet of paper ( pattern) makes 4-6 ornaments.. that ink and paper cost might be minimal but see how much difference choosing a good selling product with just as much variety of different themes etc etc.. I make about $150 -200 per hour off ornaments without the expenses deducted.. but not a lot of expenses.. BBply is $12 a sheet how many animal puzzles out of a $12 board. There are different ways to make things with the scroll saw and be able to make a decent profit.. My point with this is.. IF you're wanting to make money at it.. you'll need to think through what you want to sell and what kind of profit you're wanting to make.. and if it's even a sell-able product.. My ornaments are the bread and butter to my business.. I sold about 2300 ornaments last year and around 112 clocks and maybe a couple handsful. of other products.. I only started selling clocks because Christmas ornaments are a big seller for about 4 months.. then the other 8 months is dead...  the more traffic a website gets the higher it ranks in searches.. so I had to sell clocks to offset the ornaments and sort of bring traffic into the site year round.. 

Will I get rich doing this? NO But also I've been a stay at home dad for 22 years.. try finding a job without a work history and being out of the loop for 22 years.. yeah, I've always ran some sort of part time business or side hustle.. but finding fixable work ( still have one child I'm schooling ) that works with my scheduled that I need right now for another couple years until my kids are done with school etc.. I may go find a day job then.. but for now.. $30,000 - 32, 000 a year after expenses.. I can't get a part time job with flexible hours and make that kind of money so I'll be doing this for at least a couple more years..

JT mentioned time spend going to get materials etc.. I just wondered if anyone actually counts the time they spend traveling to work back and forth everyday into their annual income? Got a friend that quit his job for another job that is 20 miles farther drive each way.. for $0.50 per hour more money.. I'm guessing but I think the added drive time and wear on the car was probably going to eat up that added income.. Just my 2 cents worth.. I don't have to drive to work at all .. and the miles getting supplies I get a $0.55 per mile credit on my taxes.. I drive less than 1000 miles a year for business so it's not adding up to much but, hey.. at least I don't spend 1- 1.5 hours a day driving to and from work, LOL.. BUT.. I will say my boss is a jerk about missing days and being late to work  had to take myself into the office and give myself a verbal warning about being late 3 days in a row last week..     

            

i do have a full time job. i cooked for about 25years then did floor care and housekeeping for a few years. i then got the chance to go back to cooking, a job i can do without even thinking, and cut my drive from 25 miles each way to 7 miles. i picked up scrolling 2 years ago and first and foremost it is a hobby. a friend saw my portraits and asked what i charged to do one of his dog. after asking if i could make duplicates i charged only $25. i stack cut 8 when cutting his he was happy with it and i ended up selling 6 others for $25 each. 

doing shows came only because i local book store saw my work and offered to sell some and one of his regulars was putting on a Con and ask me to join. i made enough to invest in more projects and that brings me to the point i am. 

i guess you could say i am nervous about the next show and that is why i asked the question. i have chosen a niche that was vacant of scroll art and one of my favorite things so it is not "work" to sit and make original projects. if the shows don't to well i have a fall back at a local peddlers mall where i can get a large space for only $17 a month. 

i have expanded what i cut to expand my draw for the next show. 

i have made some puzzle like patterns i can stack cut that i have sold so made a bunch more for the superman con.

 

thank you all for your input. you are some great people!!!

Edited May 14, 2019 by 3Dface

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Kevin I see you took offense to my laughable comment and that is ok but I stand by it. You are different than most anyone here because you chose to make it a job and glad you found you could. There are not many people  can do what you are doing so be glad.  Many people do this as a hobby with the intent to make a few $$ and that has become harder with each passing year. As I said in the past the craft scene is far from what it was as is many things. But if you were to do shows you would find real quickly you would not get the prices you charge on your web sites. You better stick to those. We all know the stackable tricks if your project allows it. When I mention all the things people do not account for is because they get overlooked. You sound like you do not but include it in some form in your pricing. Again bravo for you. You are a business man. You know what it takes to deal with the IRS which people forget that is a must if they want to make a go of it. 

I will mention because you brought it up that yes travel and work miles were deductible when I was working. There were many more write-offs back in the day than they are today because of closing loopholes for the average Joe Shmo. Won't go into this.

Everyone is different and they adapt to what it takes to feed their family and provide for them. Everyone does not live in the same place so there are many factors that come into play. Do this as a full time career is definitely not easy. You need to be motivated and this has been discussed before so I won't go into it. 

As you say working off a arbitrary wage amount is one way to convince yourself you are getting top $$ then so be it.

 

I tried to point some things out to Chris that doing a couple shows is not a true look at what it takes. As he said he is expanding his project line and this will help for sure. Good luck to all and happy scrolling. By the way I could not make or ask the money I made at my real job that came with medical benefits, vacation and holiday pay, pension and annuity. Oh yea that is why people have other jobs and travel to them..   

Edited May 14, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

16 hours ago, 3Dface said:

 

i do have a full time job. i cooked for about 25years then did floor care and housekeeping for a few years. i then got the chance to go back to cooking, a job i can do without even thinking, and cut my drive from 25 miles each way to 7 miles. i picked up scrolling 2 years ago and first and foremost it is a hobby. a friend saw my portraits and asked what i charged to do one of his dog. after asking if i could make duplicates i charged only $25. i stack cut 8 when cutting his he was happy with it and i ended up selling 6 others for $25 each. 

doing shows came only because i local book store saw my work and offered to sell some and one of his regulars was putting on a Con and ask me to join. i made enough to invest in more projects and that brings me to the point i am. 

i guess you could say i am nervous about the next show and that is why i asked the question. i have chosen a niche that was vacant of scroll art and one of my favorite things so it is not "work" to sit and make original projects. if the shows don't to well i have a fall back at a local peddlers mall where i can get a large space for only $17 a month. 

i have expanded what i cut to expand my draw for the next show. 

i have made some puzzle like patterns i can stack cut that i have sold so made a bunch more for the superman con.

 

thank you all for your input. you are some great people!!!

Nice cutting.. I like that

[kmmcrafts]

My father used to say.. A negative person will always find an excuse to not do it.. A positive person goes out and does it.. You can apply that to most anything in life..

 

[JimErn]

My Dad said, go do it, ask for forgiveness later (if needed)

and if it fails, think of the story you can tell later

[3Dface]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

My father used to say.. A negative person will always find an excuse to not do it.. A positive person goes out and does it.. You can apply that to most anything in life..

 

mine is "you never fail until you stop trying". 

but wisdom doesn't always agree. i do not want to stop shows but  i also can't just throw money away. the Super Con space is $240. it is estimated the on average over the 40 years attendance has grown to about 20,000 people visit each day. this is a good test to see if forking out big money to attend is worth the investment.

Adam Savage says "there is no failure, there are merely iterations that do not give you the outcome you expected".my next iteration is retail space.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[barb.j.enders]

12 minutes ago, 3Dface said:

mine is "you never fail until you stop trying". 

but wisdom doesn't always agree. i do not want to stop shows but  i also can't just throw money away. the Super Con space is $240. it is estimated the on average over the 40 years attendance has grown to about 20,000 people visit each day. this is a good test to see if forking out big money to attend is worth the investment.

Adam Savage says "there is no failure, there are merely iterations that do not give you the outcome you expected".my next iteration is retail space.

 

To all the pattern makers - can someone make a pattern of this saying????     "You never fail until you stop trying"  

 

 

 

 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

You can also use the old adage " You have to spend money to make money" That may seem to be alot of money for a show but for some shows that is small potatoes. The only way you are going to find out where you stand is to try as you say. A few shows is not going to give you a true sense of where you are. But learn from them. Look around the show see what is selling and work off those themes. But again what sells at one show may not at the next. It is the nature of the beast. Have fun with it. Spread your cards around and get your name out there. Talk to customers and get their thoughts. That is the best thing about doing shows, the interaction. You are getting live time reactions and feedback. That is what I like about doing shows. Good luck. Here's hoping you sell out. 

[JimErn]

Our art is like any, the customer has to see something they like.  for that to happen you need some variety not only in the overall look, but the subject matter too.

I think subject matter is the most important, I had a customer looking for anything medical, she bought my RN sign, and a couple of others I had that were kind of silly cardio cartoony things, did not matter to her if it was a slab of wood live edge or an 8x10 framed piece, she bought them all.  Another customer was into ships, I had one, he took it, each month he comes back and surprise I have a different one - funny how that works out.

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, JimErn said:

Our art is like any, the customer has to see something they like.  for that to happen you need some variety not only in the overall look, but the subject matter too.

I think subject matter is the most important, I had a customer looking for anything medical, she bought my RN sign, and a couple of others I had that were kind of silly cardio cartoony things, did not matter to her if it was a slab of wood live edge or an 8x10 framed piece, she bought them all.  Another customer was into ships, I had one, he took it, each month he comes back and surprise I have a different one - funny how that works out.

Boy you nailed it on that.. For internet sales.. you are better off with a lot of listings.. first of all the more listings you put up on a site the better odds someone finds you.. Put 10 items on etsy or amazon and you just get lost in the internet land.. LOL BUT.. put 500 items on there and you pretty much get some decent traffic... Online selling isn't how it used to be when there was only a million sellers online.. Now with billions of sellers.. well you get the idea.. 

If I did a crafts shows I'd have to rent all the tables to be able to display all my stuff, 

[rjweb]

Kevin, i know you have a boat load of items on your sites, did you purchase all those patterns or do you design your own, RJ

[kmmcrafts]

36 minutes ago, rjweb said:

Kevin, i know you have a boat load of items on your sites, did you purchase all those patterns or do you design your own, RJ

Most are purchased and then some are modified by me.. very few are designed by me.. but a lot are modified by me ( ie a lot of the car clocks were DXF files for a CNC machine then I modified the image to work as a scroll saw pattern and added the spot for the clocks and the text etc etc..  Some of my wall hang clocks are actually ornament patterns or collector plate designs that I made into a clock.. so.. not sure they really qualify as my patterns.. the hard part of the design work was already there.. and I just merge images into one image etc to make a custom design that no one else is selling..