How much one can make if work as a full time scroller?

[Ash]

Hi all, 

My question may sound little weird as I am very new in this world of scroll art. It is just my hobby at this point of time. I have this gut feeling that this was the type of art I was looking for and this is the reason I joint this forum and trying to read as much as I can. I read lot of discussion where very experienced artists were talking about making it a business and it was very intense. I really wanna know how much you can earn as a full time scroller. 

Thanks in advance.

Ash

[kmmcrafts]

I think many folks would like to know that answer... I'll go out on a limb and say a few things about this question though..

First off.. everyone's opinion of good money is different.. some will say 20,000 is plenty of money to live off of.. others will say 400,000 isn't enough to live off of.. How much money one can make doing this full time would greatly depend on a large number of things... like... how hard they wanna work.. how good they are at being a sales person.. what area they live in and if the market is good / bad in that area.. the question you ask is really very generic and just my opinion can only be answer by you if you try to make a go at doing this as a business..

That all said...

IF your main concern about doing this as a business is the money you'd make.. then you are just chasing money rather than a career that will give YOU that comfortable Happy living.. Like I said above.. depends on how much work one wants to put forth and what their expectations of money and happiness is. Some people are very happy living in a cardboard box and bumming money on a street corner so they can buy their next sandwich or their beer.. whatever floats their boat.. I know people that made $300,000 a year and are the most unhappy people I know... they make all this money doing something they hate to do just so they can have that fancy car/ house and whatnot to show off what they have.. and live miserable lives because they are NOT willing to step off their soap box for happiness and down size the big house and the fancy cars and do a job they love.. I know people that live in small house and drive old rusty cars and are not trying to impress anyone and they are very happy living on 30,000 a year.. 

Running a business is work.. more work than a regular day job because you are the responsible one to make it succeed or fail.. it's always on you... You'll need to love the whole process of doing that business or you'll never win.. Some people think they should be able to work when they want and make lot's of money..while other may work 16 hours a day and feel that is not enough hours... some people just love the process and the money is a side affect of that process.. I run a small business doing scroll work.. I love the process.. I love getting that order that needs to be mailed out the next day and I'm working in the shop until 3-4am to make it happen.. to get that order to the customer on time.. to make that unique special personalized gift and the thought of the smiles that my work brought to someone clear across the world..

Many people see business owners and think they are loaded with money.. some may be loaded.. but they didn't get there without working their face off.. 

My biggest advice for anyone who reads this...

Never chase the $$ as you'll never be happy.. instead.. chase happiness and the $$ will fall where you need in order to win at being happy.. because in this life.. all the dollars in the world can't make you happy.. only you can make you happy.. do what you love to do..if you don't know what that is... Try things.. and find what it is that makes you happy.. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by kmmcrafts

[JAC1961]

@kmmcraftsVery well said Kevin. This is the main reason I don't pursue the $ making aspect more than I have.  I think this is even more of a factor if you're retired.  Each time I start thinking I'm going to do umpteen craft shows a year and sell on Etsy, Facebook, etc. it starts sounding way too much like work and that slows my roll.  Everyone's different and if you enjoy busy every minute life style, great.  I do not.

Another thing is "going into business" can get pricey.  Make sure that you look into all that before you commit.  Best of luck if you decide to jump in.

[kmmcrafts]

John that is very true.. Time to do little things ads up too.. don't charge just for your time at the saw.. you forgot ( if selling online) about the hour a day answering emails... that 3-4-6 hours you spend packaging orders every week.. or the time setting up and sitting all day at a craft show and then take down time.. Way Too Many People only see the outside of the business running and do not see ALL aspects of running the business.. 

I bragged up about how I cut 25 ornaments in 1.5 hours the other day.. and that I charge $15.97 per ornament and that I was making $140 ish per hour.. but what you all haven't seen is the hour communicating with that customer.. the hour of prep sanding the boards and then the hour of finish touches packaging time etc etc etc.. at the end of the day.. I might have actually made 50-60 an hour off that order... buy business liability insurance and pay your taxes.. packaging supplies and the list goes on.. Like I said... You gotta love what you do or you already failed at doing it.. Nobody got rich not working hard for it.. if they did it was hand me down money from someone else that did work hard for it..

At the end of the day... I like what I do.. am I rich... Yes rich in happiness.. but dollar wise.. that could be a matter of opinion.. because it's good money to one person.. and nothing to the next.. 

[ike]

I am retired and This is a hobby. I sell at craft shows mainly church type. You don't usually have a big sales . I always sell $100 and uselessly sell about $250/300 This pays for my hobby and that is my main concern I have done 3 so far this year and have broke even for the year and have 2 left and that will be a good start on next year. as far as working 40 hours you will probably go hungry KEEP YOUR DAY JOB.

ike

[kmmcrafts]

I personally know several business owners.. 4 of my brothers and a couple of high school buddies... 

I've never seen a 40 hour week business owner than made enough to live off of.. at least for the first 10 years of the business.. something to think about..

[Foxfold]

Not scrolling perhaps but my husband ran his own business for 20+ years and NEVER did a 40hr week. He worked during the day, did his books and spoke to customers at night, went in on  Sundays  to get ready for the week ahead.

As has been said, equipment, insurance, stock, bills and general living expenses need paying for before a penny can be counted as ''profit''. It's a great life if you love what you are doing and can bring an awful lot of pleasure but it don't come easy on time and effort.

All the luck in the world if it's what you decide to do though. xx

[Ash]

3 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I think many folks would like to know that answer... I'll go out on a limb and say a few things about this question though..

First off.. everyone's opinion of good money is different.. some will say 20,000 is plenty of money to live off of.. others will say 400,000 isn't enough to live off of.. How much money one can make doing this full time would greatly depend on a large number of things... like... how hard they wanna work.. how good they are at being a sales person.. what area they live in and if the market is good / bad in that area.. the question you ask is really very generic and just my opinion can only be answer by you if you try to make a go at doing this as a business..

That all said...

IF your main concern about doing this as a business is the money you'd make.. then you are just chasing money rather than a career that will give YOU that comfortable Happy living.. Like I said above.. depends on how much work one wants to put forth and what their expectations of money and happiness is. Some people are very happy living in a cardboard box and bumming money on a street corner so they can buy their next sandwich or their beer.. whatever floats their boat.. I know people that made $300,000 a year and are the most unhappy people I know... they make all this money doing something they hate to do just so they can have that fancy car/ house and whatnot to show off what they have.. and live miserable lives because they are NOT willing to step off their soap box for happiness and down size the big house and the fancy cars and do a job they love.. I know people that live in small house and drive old rusty cars and are not trying to impress anyone and they are very happy living on 30,000 a year.. 

Running a business is work.. more work than a regular day job because you are the responsible one to make it succeed or fail.. it's always on you... You'll need to love the whole process of doing that business or you'll never win.. Some people think they should be able to work when they want and make lot's of money..while other may work 16 hours a day and feel that is not enough hours... some people just love the process and the money is a side affect of that process.. I run a small business doing scroll work.. I love the process.. I love getting that order that needs to be mailed out the next day and I'm working in the shop until 3-4am to make it happen.. to get that order to the customer on time.. to make that unique special personalized gift and the thought of the smiles that my work brought to someone clear across the world..

Many people see business owners and think they are loaded with money.. some may be loaded.. but they didn't get there without working their face off.. 

My biggest advice for anyone who reads this...

Never chase the $$ as you'll never be happy.. instead.. chase happiness and the $$ will fall where you need in order to win at being happy.. because in this life.. all the dollars in the world can't make you happy.. only you can make you happy.. do what you love to do..if you don't know what that is... Try things.. and find what it is that makes you happy.. 

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooooo much Kevin. your reply to my question just not gave me the detailed insight about the same but also will be a reference for people who want to make it a livelihood. thanks a ton.

[kmmcrafts]

Can a scroll saw business make $50000 a year income? Yes.. But when you ask a question of how much a person can make doing it full time is a generalized question... but the business making $50000 a year doesn't mean you as the owner makes 50000 a year.. it just means the business brings in that kind of money.. add up your business expenses and see what that leaves you for .. I'd say a from my experience.. I only sell online so I have no idea how this could compare to a person going to shows.. but a scroll saw artist doing $50,000 a year in sales. after all those expenses probably leaves about $30,000 - 35,000 for you.. and the more business = more expenses.. friends and family hear how much my business made last year.. they say dang I only make $40,000 a year and I have to go to work 6-7 days a week for that.. LOL what they don't know is I might only make $35,000 a year and work 3 times the hours they do.. They just don't see it from the other side of the fence.. LOL

I see a decent amount of income through my business... but.. income is deceiving because I have to claim the shipping money even though I'm paid to ship a customers item... even though I have it set up so they are paying the shipping.. it's still considered income for my business.. because it is income.. but that same money goes right back out the door as an expense because it is used to ship the package..  Package supplies are bought with my business income... and are a business expense.. same as wood, saw blades, equipment etc etc.. This is why I've always said. you can look on websites like Etsy and see by their pricing who is in business and who is a hobbyist it's plain as day.. when you look at the pricing who is actually paying for business overhead and taxes insurance... those things add way up when you do it the right / legal way... which make that $5 ornament seem like a good price to start at if you're not paying those REAL business bills.. I charge 15.97 per ornament.. but at the end of all my expenses and overhead.. I might be making $4 per ornament.. so that hobbyist might actually make more money at it.. that is until the Tax man catches up with you. LOL

Also kinda like hiring a lawn care guy.. he charges you $40 to mow your grass.. the kid next door will do it for $15 and uses your mower.. that's $15 for that little boy.. the lawn care service has equipment expenses.. etc and is probably making that $15 the boy is.. but you as the customer are paying for his equipment and insurance..  Say a mower catches a rock. and take out a window in your house.. you either claim it on your insurance and chance you insurance goes up.. or the lawn guys insurance.. your insurance may ask you to fill out a detailed description of what happen.. and they may pay the window replacement but then your insurance sues the lawn guy.. his policy covers him the kid next door just got sued and they took it out of the parents money... I know it's a shame these days how things work.. and a shame that a person can work and do side jobs all their lives under the radar and never get sued or any kind of liability action taken against them.. while the REAL business guy that tries to do the right things always seems like the one getting picked on.. mainly about his prices and or everyone thinks he's the richest guy around and they want to be him.. LOL

My friends always talking about how I have the greatest set up and I can work when i want to.. How nice it is that I can stop working to go meet them for lunch etc.. but what they don't see is... because I stopped to go eat lunch with them.. I'm out working in the shop while they are home from work watching tv and soaking in the hot tube.. Yeah one benefit is you pick and choose a little of when to work and you can work around things in some cases.. but the point it you still gotta work..      

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I won't touch this question with a 10 foot pole. Way too many factors come into play. When people here say they are a business does not mean this is their living wage. I have a business or should say it was a business recognized by the IRS but has been downgraded to a hobby/business because of the income. You ask how much can you make scrolling??  Again so many factors come into play and Kevin did a fine job mentioning the big ones. Years ago I would have said you had a much better chance than you do today. There is China and that huge store Walmart and now Amazon. Years ago they did not exist in the conversation. Now that is just part of your competition along with the other scrollers doing the same things. Many avenues to pursue to sell your wares but being that above average salesman needs to be in your DNA. Now if you hire out help that becomes more of a burden on your income. The responsibilities are huge. If you have a family and they are counting on an income that has no guarantees from one day to the next is not what I want to put my future on. Do it as a hobby and see how it goes and expand if you see fit but do not go all in on such a shaky prospect as scrollsawing.  Keep good records as you progress and it will tell you the whole truth in a couple years. Then you can answer your own question. Good luck. 

 

I am editing this to add another thought for you to think about. If you are really really serious about doing this full time I highly suggest finding something or creating something everyone else is not doing because if you do the same things as Kevin or others here you will not make money. Kevin has the web sites tied up and if you go it alone on a show circuit you will starve. I also turn pens and this is the same idea there. Everyone makes the same pens and buys kits from the same vendors so where is the difference?? Look on ebay they sell pens for less than I can buy the kits for. Same with clocks scrollsawn or not. Now make something unique and your chances rise until you are ripped off by others unless you go the copyright and patent avenue and that gets expensive. Give you an example Kinetic art. Not many people making that stuff and it can sell for big$$$ 

Edited November 23, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[stevan]

Here is a quote from GrandpaJim down in the the Coffee House that I think most everyone trying to make money in Any business may agree with:

The IRS suspected a fishing boat owner wasn't paying proper wages to his
Deckhand and sent an agent to investigate him.

IRS  AUDITOR: "I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them".

Boat  Owner: "Well, there's Clarence, my deckhand, he's been with me for 3
years. I pay him $1,000 a week plus free room and board.  Then there's the
mentally challenged guy. He works about 18 hours every day and does about
90% of the work around here. He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room
and board, and I buy him a bottle of Bacardi rum and a dozen Budweiser's
every Saturday night so he can cope with life. He also gets to sleep with my
wife occasionally".
 
IRS  AUDITOR: "That's the guy I want to talk to - the mentally challenged
one".
   
Boat  Owner: "That would be me. What would you like to know"?

[tomsteve]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:24 AM, kmmcrafts said:

 

I bragged up about how I cut 25 ornaments in 1.5 hours the other day.. and that I charge $15.97 per ornament and that I was making $140 ish per hour.. but what you all haven't seen is the hour communicating with that customer.. the hour of prep sanding the boards and then the hour of finish touches packaging time etc etc etc.. at the end of the day.. I might have actually made 50-60 an hour off that order... buy business liability insurance and pay your taxes.. packaging supplies and the list goes on..

i know a cabinet maker that did extraordinary work. his garage is his shop. he was/is quite busy yet HIS income wasnt that much. when calculating cost he didnt include utilities, time involved to get material,didnt do price breakdown on what went into each set of cabinets, profit,and rent. since it wasnt him that was working in his garage but his company, his company should have been renting the space and paying the bills.

he also didnt set a wage for himself. basically after all bills were paid,that was his income. when he changed it so he was an employee of his company with a wage, his income increased and the company made a profit.

 

i have a lot of respect for people that can make scrolling a buisness. its a LOT of work.

[Heli_av8tor]

Turning a hobby into a business is a good way to ruin a hobby. Been there more than once. Finally learned - I think.

Tom

[kmmcrafts]

On 11/22/2018 at 11:40 PM, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I won't touch this question with a 10 foot pole. Way too many factors come into play. When people here say they are a business does not mean this is their living wage. I have a business or should say it was a business recognized by the IRS but has been downgraded to a hobby/business because of the income. You ask how much can you make scrolling??  Again so many factors come into play and Kevin did a fine job mentioning the big ones. Years ago I would have said you had a much better chance than you do today. There is China and that huge store Walmart and now Amazon. Years ago they did not exist in the conversation. Now that is just part of your competition along with the other scrollers doing the same things. Many avenues to pursue to sell your wares but being that above average salesman needs to be in your DNA. Now if you hire out help that becomes more of a burden on your income. The responsibilities are huge. If you have a family and they are counting on an income that has no guarantees from one day to the next is not what I want to put my future on. Do it as a hobby and see how it goes and expand if you see fit but do not go all in on such a shaky prospect as scrollsawing.  Keep good records as you progress and it will tell you the whole truth in a couple years. Then you can answer your own question. Good luck. 

 

I am editing this to add another thought for you to think about. If you are really really serious about doing this full time I highly suggest finding something or creating something everyone else is not doing because if you do the same things as Kevin or others here you will not make money. Kevin has the web sites tied up and if you go it alone on a show circuit you will starve. I also turn pens and this is the same idea there. Everyone makes the same pens and buys kits from the same vendors so where is the difference?? Look on ebay they sell pens for less than I can buy the kits for. Same with clocks scrollsawn or not. Now make something unique and your chances rise until you are ripped off by others unless you go the copyright and patent avenue and that gets expensive. Give you an example Kinetic art. Not many people making that stuff and it can sell for big$$$ 

Few comments about your thoughts of business's.. First off.. what does the IRS consider a business? They don't care how much you make, if anything.. You're considered a business IF.. you sell and make ANY profits or intend to make a profit.. I know every state is different.. BUT.. here in my state.. if you're making things to sell you're considered a manufacture and doing crafts to sell is a manufacture of products which means if you're selling them you need to have a minimum of a DBA so you can obtain a sales tax licence and be a legal seller.. Don't believe we have anything about a hobby with making money.. if that's the case.. then they must have some sort of limit on how much income the hobby can make before you're considered a business? Quite certain I'm well over that limit  

Some like to downplay what consist of a successful business... Lets think about this for a minute.. because many times I've seen you post about.. me and others saying we are in business but you imply we are "not" REALLY a business because we aren't making enough to support the family as a whole.. This support you say so much about in these topics is measured differently in itself per individual.. because some families cannot live on $30000 a year and others cannot live off of $150,000 a year..   I'd also like to counter that statement by saying... Not many households these days have only a single parent working or single income these days anyway.. so why do you think a business isn't really a business if it's not providing for the family as a whole? I wish there was such a thing as having it just a hobby until you make enough to support your household .. because then I could tell the government that I cannot support yet so i'm just a hobby.. because I still don't have that new BMW sitting in my driveway and the whole family doesn't have the latest smartphone.. My shops not full of the top of the line equipment.. LOL There is an excuse around every corner..

As for having the websites tied up with my stuff and not being able to survive with me and the others on these sites.. well I think there is room for more people but you are somewhat right about that.. that being said.. there was all kinds of china made stuff on these sites and other scroll sawers lasers, cnc's etc etc..  on there doing the same things as I do.. didn't stop me.. and it wont stop me because.. I charge what I need to keep going as a business and seem to know how to find the paying customers..... Those that start up on these sites should do the same IF they want to stay in business.. here's the thing.. Most start up thinking its easy money.. some try to undercut prices and sell cheap to grab attention from shoppers and try to take business from those that are charging more.. NEWS FLASH.. you only run yourself out of business by not making any money.. great for those hobbyist that aren't looking for a big paycheck.. but most of those folks don't go the extra mile to make their site and pictures and etc etc etc not only to be professional looking but then you have SEO to deal with.. Sooo many factors go into play with actually being able to sell your stuff online.. and I've never seen a hobbyist do anything but post one picture and barely describe what they are selling.. So yes the hobbyist do affect the sales I get.. but many do not do any custom work.. most will only sell what they have and make already.. most don't sell much because they don't put in the effort to do so.. it's a hobby... when they don't sell.. they leave.. Yeah for every few that leave.. some more show up.. but they'll leave soon too... Also most hobbyist won't do returns and never have their terms and policies filled out.. This is a big reason you don't see Amazon Handmade flooded with crafters and hobbyist.. because they have a crap ton of rules.. and per their rules.. Free returns including the shipping cost to return it.. etc etc.. Hobbyist aren't willing to loose money on the thought that they may have to accept a return and pay the shipping to bring it back to them.. as they've already spent the money on themselves or supplies to make another piece.. nobody puts money away for that slow month.. they make a good month and reward themselves with a new tool or ??  

Anyway, saying someone can't make it on etsy and the other sites because there are others already doing it.. is just a excuse to not do it.. in my local town.. there are several gas stations dang near every other corner.... they all sell the same gas.. same thing with McDonalds and many other stores.. Lowes is right across the street from Menards... You do have to work at standing out different than the others in some way.. but one can still thrive on these sites even with all the other variables..        

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Few comments about your thoughts of business's.. First off.. what does the IRS consider a business? They don't care how much you make, if anything.. You're considered a business IF.. you sell and make ANY profits or intend to make a profit.. I know every state is different.. BUT.. here in my state.. if you're making things to sell you're considered a manufacture and doing crafts to sell is a manufacture of products which means if you're selling them you need to have a minimum of a DBA so you can obtain a sales tax licence and be a legal seller.. Don't believe we have anything about a hobby with making money.. if that's the case.. then they must have some sort of limit on how much income the hobby can make before you're considered a business? Quite certain I'm well over that limit  

Some like to downplay what consist of a successful business... Lets think about this for a minute.. because many times I've seen you post about.. me and others saying we are in business but you imply we are "not" REALLY a business because we aren't making enough to support the family as a whole.. This support you say so much about in these topics is measured differently in itself per individual.. because some families cannot live on $30000 a year and others cannot live off of $150,000 a year..   I'd also like to counter that statement by saying... Not many households these days have only a single parent working or single income these days anyway.. so why do you think a business isn't really a business if it's not providing for the family as a whole? I wish there was such a thing as having it just a hobby until you make enough to support your household .. because then I could tell the government that I cannot support yet so i'm just a hobby.. because I still don't have that new BMW sitting in my driveway and the whole family doesn't have the latest smartphone.. My shops not full of the top of the line equipment.. LOL There is an excuse around every corner..

As for having the websites tied up with my stuff and not being able to survive with me and the others on these sites.. well I think there is room for more people but you are somewhat right about that.. that being said.. there was all kinds of china made stuff on these sites and other scroll sawers lasers, cnc's etc etc..  on there doing the same things as I do.. didn't stop me.. and it wont stop me because.. I charge what I need to keep going as a business and seem to know how to find the paying customers..... Those that start up on these sites should do the same IF they want to stay in business.. here's the thing.. Most start up thinking its easy money.. some try to undercut prices and sell cheap to grab attention from shoppers and try to take business from those that are charging more.. NEWS FLASH.. you only run yourself out of business by not making any money.. great for those hobbyist that aren't looking for a big paycheck.. but most of those folks don't go the extra mile to make their site and pictures and etc etc etc not only to be professional looking but then you have SEO to deal with.. Sooo many factors go into play with actually being able to sell your stuff online.. and I've never seen a hobbyist do anything but post one picture and barely describe what they are selling.. So yes the hobbyist do affect the sales I get.. but many do not do any custom work.. most will only sell what they have and make already.. most don't sell much because they don't put in the effort to do so.. it's a hobby... when they don't sell.. they leave.. Yeah for every few that leave.. some more show up.. but they'll leave soon too... Also most hobbyist won't do returns and never have their terms and policies filled out.. This is a big reason you don't see Amazon Handmade flooded with crafters and hobbyist.. because they have a crap ton of rules.. and per their rules.. Free returns including the shipping cost to return it.. etc etc.. Hobbyist aren't willing to loose money on the thought that they may have to accept a return and pay the shipping to bring it back to them.. as they've already spent the money on themselves or supplies to make another piece.. nobody puts money away for that slow month.. they make a good month and reward themselves with a new tool or ??  

Anyway, saying someone can't make it on etsy and the other sites because there are others already doing it.. is just a excuse to not do it.. in my local town.. there are several gas stations dang near every other corner.... they all sell the same gas.. same thing with McDonalds and many other stores.. Lowes is right across the street from Menards... You do have to work at standing out different than the others in some way.. but one can still thrive on these sites even with all the other variables..        

 

Well Kevin I stand corrected on all things. I have been schooled. Good luck to you and your business and to anyone else trying or actually doing it. I think we can agree on this, it is alot of work if you are pursuing this avenue.

 

I think I need to stay out of this business forum. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[rjweb]

Very interesting subject, I was in business for 50 years when I retired and moved on. But seen the young guys trying to start a business thinking the grass is always greener over there, it’s not unless you work at it, RJ 

[tomsteve]

11 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

 

Anyway, saying someone can't make it on etsy and the other sites because there are others already doing it.. is just a excuse to not do it.. in my local town.. there are several gas stations dang near every other corner.... they all sell the same gas.. same thing with McDonalds and many other stores.. Lowes is right across the street from Menards... You do have to work at standing out different than the others in some way.. but one can still thrive on these sites even with all the other variables..        

 

another one that started on them sites is my niece

https://www.etsy.com/shop/PiccolaCustomJewelry?ref=ss_profile

 

it took a lot of work and struggling but today between all of her online outlets shes making a comfortable mid 5 figure living.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, tomsteve said:

another one that started on them sites is my niece

https://www.etsy.com/shop/PiccolaCustomJewelry?ref=ss_profile

 

it took a lot of work and struggling but today between all of her online outlets shes making a comfortable mid 5 figure living.

Just would like to point out that she makes a different kind of jewelry that most people do not do. Very nice stuff by the way. I stand by my statement that your chances are far greater if you create an item that is unique. Scrollsawing is not unique in any stretch of the imagination. Heck we all do it here and there are thousands more doing it out there. I see it all the time at shows. But try to distance yourself from the rest of the pack.  Be prepared to work real hard.

I will from now on defer to those that are in business and sell on line. My experiences over 30 years  deal with selling at shows and consignment stores. I have no on line experience and the people I know that do just do it for a side business or a hobby type setup. As I said I do not belong in the business forum. Good luck to all and hope business around the world pop up and add to this hobby and bring back some of that excitement that use to rain down on this artform. 

[kmmcrafts]

JT, I just like to give a hard time about the online selling because I know 99% of you will never open a online store and those that do will see the work involved in actually making it work and give up before they even get started or really try.. You are more than welcome to voice your opinion.. you are very knowledgeable about selling in general.. and many of the things you say are true in most cases.. but it also doesn't mean that it cannot be done either.. just hard work as you have said.. you do have to stand out.. whether that means making better impression with your pictures or how you describe the items at hand or just making completely different stuff.. Selling puzzles as an example.. I only have a few of them.. but i'm selling those few I have at $25 - 35.. all the while Duke seems to be happy with selling his out of what I consider a premium wood ( more expensive than Poplar ) and he sells at $10.. i started selling them knowing full well that he was selling at $10.. simply because I know he's not putting in the work for a long term business and he's not building a following on there either.. so yeah... people run across his items in the searches.. but.. give it a couple years I if I wanted I could dominate that search over him and the others.. that are not actually "working" at it to build a following.. they just list there stuff in hopes someone finds it.. I leave a trail of pictures all over the net with my items and descriptions and build long term back links to my web site.. 

Selling online with SEO is similar to building a retirement.. a little money gains a little interest.. but that interest snowballs into more money over the long term.. and eventually you have a decent pile of money.. Taking time to build a following online for a business is similar in that.. it takes a lone time to get that ball rolling.. ( search engines picking up your site )  and getting site views and shoppers work the same way.. The only way to be on top without a lot of work... lot's of advertising that cost a lot... 

Nobody in their right mind should just rely on one web site to bring all the income in... don't rely on etsy solely.. etsy is only about 55% of my total business...  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Kevin you do not have to worry about me giving you any competition on those on line sites. I am too old to start new things like that. I do have a web site that I almost started up but could not find the time to take care of it because I did have a full time job and other priorities. Now that I am retired I have no ambition to go that route. I still keep it and keep all the domain names. But it is shut down.  I like to create things and ever expanding ideas. I do not want to scroll the same things over and over any more. I have walked that path and made some decent money but not for me any more. 

All things you say are probably true about selling on line. You know more than I do when it comes to that stuff. As I said I do not belong in this forum section. I should not be giving any advice on business. 

[tomsteve]

one thing i seriously dislike about online selling:

taking all of the dam pictures!

ok-2 things:

adding descriptions. apparently," its a snowman ornament.buy it" isnt good enough.

Edited December 11, 2018 by tomsteve

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, tomsteve said:

one thing i seriously dislike about online selling:

taking all of the dam pictures!

ok-2 things:

adding descriptions. apparently," its a snowman ornament.but it" isnt good enough.

Wait till you get the customer than can't read the description and you get about 10 - 20 emails a day asking questions that the answer is in the description... or the customers that purchase an item and then tell you to custom / personalize the item.. Hello customers.. ask before you assume I can do it.. also the price goes up for custom / personalized work.. so then you have to either take time out of your day to cancel the order and issue a refund.. or.. create a invoice for the rest of the money.. so much easier if they just contact first... LOL  

[tomsteve]

14 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Wait till you get the customer than can't read the description and you get about 10 - 20 emails a day asking questions that the answer is in the description... or the customers that purchase an item and then tell you to custom / personalize the item.. Hello customers.. ask before you assume I can do it.. also the price goes up for custom / personalized work.. so then you have to either take time out of your day to cancel the order and issue a refund.. or.. create a invoice for the rest of the money.. so much easier if they just contact first... LOL  

i havent gotten that YET, but have ran into some doozies face to face. i spent a lot of time designing a jewelry chest for a man off of a picture from bed,bath and beyond. wanted some custom features added and built with mahogany. he loved what i had planned. then came the price:" but that one is $99. why is yours so much more?"

i really should do a write up  to hand to people," A breakdown Of Why Products From Me Cost More Than Ikea."

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by tomsteve

[Ash]

On 11/23/2018 at 4:49 PM, stevan said:

Here is a quote from GrandpaJim down in the the Coffee House that I think most everyone trying to make money in Any business may agree with:

The IRS suspected a fishing boat owner wasn't paying proper wages to his
Deckhand and sent an agent to investigate him.

IRS  AUDITOR: "I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them".

Boat  Owner: "Well, there's Clarence, my deckhand, he's been with me for 3
years. I pay him $1,000 a week plus free room and board.  Then there's the
mentally challenged guy. He works about 18 hours every day and does about
90% of the work around here. He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room
and board, and I buy him a bottle of Bacardi rum and a dozen Budweiser's
every Saturday night so he can cope with life. He also gets to sleep with my
wife occasionally".
 
IRS  AUDITOR: "That's the guy I want to talk to - the mentally challenged
one".
   
Boat  Owner: "That would be me. What would you like to know"?

I got the message

 

[Chiloquinruss]

The hardest part of running a 'hobby' business is learning to say NO!  You have to look at each job and decide if that is really a job YOU want to do.  If it isn't, JUST SAY NO, I can't do that job.  Every once in awhile I break that rule and it ALWAYS bites me in the  . . . .

I also do CNC routing and have switched over to doing nothing but SMALL signs.  Pretty simple quick stuff but it is always CUSTOM so the price is usually not an issue.  I TRY and make around $50 an hour plus cost of materials.  Having 10 years of my hobby business under my built I can truly say at $50 per hour I am barely above breakeven but I am totally enjoying my hobby business! 

Remember to amortize the cost of the equipment required to make whatever it is you are going to make.  Spray guns, sanders, saws, drill press, lathe, scroll saw, misc hand tools etc.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.  Russ