Another dust thread - this time real life proof?

[new2woodwrk]

A little long sorry, but would like others thoughts/opinions,,,

I've been wondering a lot about dust recently because...

I have to wonder just how bad is/are  dust particles from wood. I went to 3 different places to elicit opinions and this is what I've discovered.

First my background/shop:

In my shop I use a Table saw, band saw, scroll saw, hand, bench, orbital sanders, abrasive balls, drills, dremels, sprayers on a regular basis. All machines are hobby quality, not professional grade.

I have a shop vac for dust control on the drills, another shop vac for dust control on the table saw, band saw and belt/rotary sander. I also have my HF set up to suck the dust out of the 2 scroll saws.

And still I have dust everywhere! I do not wear a mask unless I'm producing a lot of saw dust which is less than 1 day a week.

Now the real research...

So, I went to my mill guys and spoke with them - they do NOT wear a mask and they have 2 grizzly dust suckers: one at a planer and the other at a huge drum sander AND THAT'S IT!

They not only sell all kinds of wood, but they are a full service shop - they make everything from custom cabinets to custom housing pylons to custom spiral staircases etc.

So I asked them if they were not concerned with dust particles floating around etc. And they said absolutely not. The owner has been in the mill/shop for over 50 years, his son who now runs the mill/shop has been there for over 30, hes helpers both have been there 20+ and all said the same thing... Why?

I asked them about the micro particles - not worried about that either!

So I went to a lumber yard who sells lumber as well as cuts custom break downs for contractors/builders/cabinet makers etc. and I asked the exact same thing> Any concern with dust particles floating around since none of you are wearing masks/breathers.

Again, the answer was the same - Nope no worries

3rd times a charm, went to another lumber supplier - again same answer.

So my thoughts... If professionals who are knee deep in sawdust on a daily basis are not concerned with dust particles, why are hobby wood workers so majorly concerned?

I've read a lot about how to set up dust systems, and most articles barely touch on the problems of dust. I've read a few articles about the hazards. I'm leaving out any and all government and OSHA articles as both are no longer believable IMO and have no credibility for me.

Each article I have read concludes: "The extent of these hazards and the associated wood types have not been clearly established." which is exactly what the 3 pro sites I visited stated.

Thoughts?

Thanks as always in advance for reading - sorry about the length of this but it is what it is....

.

Edited December 22, 2021 by new2woodwrk

[merlin]

Well I worked in two timber mills over 10 years smoked for 40 years after retiring worked with wood for the last 5years nearly every day.

Not long had a lung and respiratory test (got one more early next month) but so far there is little or nuttin to be worried about.

In the last two years I have been sneezing for half an hour after cutting and sanding Rimu boards. (without a mask) with a mask ok ish.

So yeh your findings don't surprise me, oh on another note just remembered weed spraying now a days gives me slight headaches so am going to invest in a weed burner...

 

Merlin...

Edited December 22, 2021 by merlin
spelling to fast or to old...

[kmmcrafts]

My thoughts? LOL

Try to keep this short, My brother owns / runs a sawmill business since 1975 and worked for a sawmill business since high school until he started his own. They do not wear anything other than safety glasses, ear protection and when osha comes around hard hats, LOL. My brother I'm not sure age (70 ?) off the top of my head since I have 6 brothers to keep up with and I'm the youngest. Anyway, to talk to him for 10 minutes he's fine.. hang out with him for a few hours and he is always coughing like a smoker and he's never ever smoked ( very religious and don't believe in smoking, drinking etc.. In fact been vegetarian most his life and been vegan the last several years ) 

I have another brother than has worked there a good portion of his life too and kinda the same thing.. I used to work there for a lot of years in high school and a few years after high school. I used to have the same cough back in the day. I think it's fair to say the coughing is from the dust. Remember the mill also for the most part has larger dust particles. 

Smokers: Some folks smoke and have since they was 10 and lived to be over 100.. others get lung cancer or copd at the age of 30 - 40 etc.. everyone is different.. not going to happen to me because I jog everyday and stay fit.. that is until they get sick they think that. Not to profile smokers.. just giving an example because.. asking 3 shops that maybe employ 50 people each is a pretty small study. Lots of guys think it's some sort of weakness to their manliness if wear protection when / if others are not also doing it that they work with so only if it's a mandatory thing. 

Rather than talk to people in the work field of these environments maybe talk to healthcare workers or a doctor.. that's where you really find results because they work with those that ran around a wood shop as patients and help them set up oxygen.. when they need it. 

All that being said.. it's not mandatory for you to wear a mask and to have good dust collection.. you do you.. I just think a cheap mask is much cheaper insurance than the medical bills should you have issues now or later on. You don't need all these expensive collectors an air filtration systems in your shop but I would say wearing a mask would be a good idea anytime your in the shop. 

Again though.. you do you and I'll do me..  

[Foxfold]

Totally agree with Kevin, each to their own. It's no-ones responsibility but their own. 

Me ? I look like Darth Vadar when I'm in my workshop.  I have a mask, a vacuum, and a fan in the outside wall and a box fan.  Why ?  I look at my husband every day and see first hand the results of being 'a man' and not 'needing' protection because that's just for 'wimps' .. and believe me it's not pleasant.

We are incredibly fortunate that we had the foresight of  Aneuring Bevan just after the war that gave us our National Health Service as I'm fully aware of what it would be costing us to keep my husband up and running with both his lungs and his heart.

[preprius]

Very good topic.

As others have said doing your discussions with 1 side of the industry will give you biased data.

As with the health industry also.   They probably don't see the saw mill workers that don't have issues.   They only see the sick ones.

So take in that data and try to un-bias it.  Talk to the guy's that sell equipment, they give you the bias of buy it. 

But the other day I was going to quickly sand 3 pieces.   Did not grab my 3m mask.  I was sanding Myrtle.  The next day I had mild bloody nose.   Again 2 days later I was experimenting with a paint sprayer,  high velocity, low pressure with stain (pretty thick) .    I did not grab my mask.   The next day woke up with headache.   

One more stupid action I noticed I do.   Ok really stupid.    After I am done scrowsawing I vacuum up the area.   Sometimes something I want gets sucked into shop vac.  So I take the shop vac apart dig thru the bag and retreive the part I wanted.   Ooops   no mask.   In fact I always forget the mask when playing inside shop vacs.   Stupid stupid.

 

 

[Dan]

To be honest, I use dust collection to keep the shop a bit cleaner. I'm not worried either. Once in a while I wear a mask when scrolling for hours but that's it. My sanders make the worst mess so dust collection for sure. 

[meflick]

I agree, everyone has to do what they feel is best for them. However, as also noted your research is incomplete. You also need to talk to the doctors who treat patients with lung problems and other health issues that can be caused by woodworking. They can tell you how many patients they see who were woodworkers or worked where masking would be desired. You would be surprised at the %.

It is not even necessarily your lungs alone. Things you inhale can also cause other health problems. Kevin used the example of cigarette smoking. It causes lots of bad health problems, not just long cancer. A lot of urological cancers (bladder, kidney) are linked to cigarette smoking as well as workers in certain industries who have a higher then average incidents of those type cancers (many of them are also smokers though). Is it going to effect everyone in the same way? no. Do they know why it effects some people and not others? no. Which gets back to, is it a risk you are willing to take?

For me, I had a father who smoked for more than 30 years. He was a two pack a day, unfiltered smoker. He had that “smokers cough” for as long as I could remember. I was married in 1985. He quit smoking I believe in 1986 around the age of 47-48 after a health scare (I forget what it was). He had not smoked in 4 years when, at the age of 52, he was diagnosed with lung cancer and given 6 months to live. He took chemo and radiation  (which took their own tolls) He had a stroke 8 months after diagnosis which paralyzed him on his right side and he could no longer walk or talk. He died a month later, 9 months after his diagnosis. I was half his age, 26, when he died. He has 5 grandchildren. 3 of them born well after he was gone including my two who are now 25 and 26 (age I was when he died). The 2 he did see, were 3 when he died. It has always saddened me that my kids didn’t get to know my dad or he them. I don’t know if you have ever been around anyone dying from lung cancer, but it is a horrible disease and way to die. So is many cancers. Yet I have know others  who smoked like him, who lived to 80+ years. Why did he develop the lung cancer, and they didn’t? Nobody knows. I do believe genetics plays a part and something gets triggered somehow.  As a result, of that, and my educating myself on potential issues, and knowing my personal family history, I never smoked and I am like Brenda, I choose to error on the side of caution and wear the mask, use a dust collector and take other precautions same as I choose to wear a seatbelt. I do it not only for myself, but for my family. Does it make a difference? Only time will tell. Something will eventually kill me but I’d prefer it not be lung problems.  On the other hand, My 94 year old father in law is doing great (but he never smoked or did any woodworking. )

Edited December 23, 2021 by meflick
Typos

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, meflick said:

For me, I had a father who smoked for more than 30 years. He was a two pack a day, unfiltered smoker. He had that “smokers cough” for as long as I could remember.

It's heartbreaking watching those that get copd and cancer wither away over time.. My father-in-law passed in 2009 from copd, was a awesome guy. He was a worker and when he was diagnosed with copd he still got around pretty good even though he had to carry around that luggage ( O2 tanks etc ) everywhere he went it really beat him down and he just kept getting weaker every year.. I don't remember how long he lived with it.. just remember him having a real hard time because he liked getting out and giving a hard days work.. his last couple years about all he could do just to go outside and enjoy some sunshine.. Real shame for something that maybe could have been prevented had he listened to his doctors to quick smoking 10 years earlier. 

Mother-in-law got diagnosed with copd maybe 4-5 years after he passed.. she just passed last week.. she kinda gave up on her own when her boyfriend passed last year of lung cancer.. I've watched too many lung related deaths in my family and friends.. wearing my mask is way better than dyeing gasping for some air in my opinion.. Much rather wear a mask for the few scrolling hours than wear O2 for 24-7 until I whither away and it kills me. Just my 2 cents   

[John B]

I have worked in the cabinet industry since I was 14. Started my apprenticeship. I rarely wear a dust mask, but do have a basic dust collection system.
I do have an exhaust fan in my spray booth and when I'm doping a lot, I will wear a mask.
I don't know how people sniff glue to get high. That contact cement was the only type that bothered me, not headaches, but a little dizzy, and only when using it in confined spaces.
In those early days there was no such thing as ear muffs, masks etc. The blokes in the polishing section wore masks a lot of the time as they looked like snowmen with a flesh triangle on their nose and mouths.
If I had to wear a mask in the shed whenever I cut, planed sanded etc, I think I would give the game away as it would no-longer be [pleasurable and become more of a chore.

[Sycamore67]

I really don't care if anyone uses dust collection, mask or smokes.   It is really up to you and what happens is up to you.   Personally, I have a very good dust collector and air filter as it prevents me from respiratory issues or sinus issues.  

I do know that as we age, our lungs are less able to handle dust.  Asking workers if they use any kind of mask and you will most likely hear them say no.  I worked in an area where we generated hazardous dust.  We constantly had to enforce mask rules because the workers did not think they needed them.  It was too late when toxins showed up in their blood work.

I encourage you to use the best protection that you can so you avoid health issues.

[TAIrving]

Nowadays, especially with COVID around, which likes to attack our lungs, it seems prudent to be careful about our lung heath.  

Several years ago, when I was younger and foolish, I tried spray painting my house, without a mask of course.  Less than halfway into the job I came down with pneumonia.  I paid someone to finish the job.  I cannot prove a cause/effect relation between the painting job and the pneumonia but am not interested in repeating the experiment on any level with anything that might affect my lungs.    

As others have said, you do it your way and I'll do it my way.

Merry Christmas to all!

[meflick]

On 12/22/2021 at 11:26 PM, kmmcrafts said:

Mother-in-law got diagnosed with copd maybe 4-5 years after he passed.. she just passed last week.   

Kevin, I am sorry for your wife and your family’s loss of her mother. While it is always hard when you lose a parent, I know it is especially hard when it occurs during the holiday season which is suppose to be joyful and family oriented. We lost my MIL just before Christmas 5 years ago after losing mine 8 months earlier the same year. My prayers to your wife and family as you deal with this loss.

[Stan Cochran]

I work with both metals and wood. In my opinion the micro-fine dust that is generated from sanding and from  a scroll saw is more likely to bother someone than the larger particle dust found in a saw mill. To further that statement, there are a number of exotic woods that emit toxins in the dust that you should be wearing a mask.

When I run my planer I am not so picky about the mask,  same with the saw. When I use the scrollsaw or a Laser Welder I do use a light mask even though I have dust collection coming through the bottom of my cutting surface. I never shape or polish my metal parts from the laser work without a mask. The silicone particles from the polishing wheels and the compounds can cause many respiratory issues.

One of my friends wife worked in a plant that only cuts and packages paper envelopes for mailing. Due to the fine dust created she developed COPD and after a long illness died this past year.

If in doubt, wear a very light surgical mask. they cost $6.00 for a box of 50 at COSTCO and you get multiple uses per mask.

 

[new2woodwrk]

13 hours ago, Stan Cochran said:

...

When I run my planer I am not so picky about the mask,  same with the saw....

 

Interesting, as that is exactly the time I do wear a mask and eye protections - the chips fly around at incredible speeds! LOL

I try not to use my planer that much if at all anymore.

[Jim McDonald]

I do 99% of my work on the patio, so nature ed is my dust collection. I do have s filter on my ROS and if I have to use rotary sanding, I usually have a KN95 sine the dust is uncontrolled.

That said, I check by O2 level at least 6 times a week in cardiac rehab and it is always 99 or 100%. Not bragging, but after smoking a pack a day for for 45 years and being a firefighter for 11 years, everyone is surprised my numbers are that high consistently. 

But I know the numbers: both parents died of lung cancer and neither of them stopped smoking after their heart surgeries. On the other hand, I woke up from surgery and had absolutely no desire to smoke.

[John B]

ONYA Jim.
I stopped smoking about 12 years ago, never felt worse, at least for the 1st few weeks then never better.
For quite a while I'd wake up feeling pretty mad at myself for having a durry, then realise I had dreamed it.