kmmcrafts

I must be in the minority here.. but because I am a experienced sawer and have been sawing since 2005.. and have only needed the 20" saw throat a handful of times.. and even then i really didn't "NEED" it as I really could have skipped making those projects.. I guess the point I was trying to make was... why pay ( Excalibur for instance ) $300 more for a EX-21 when a Ex-16 will do most anything you would ever need.. But this is just my case.. and I was just trying to feel out how many sawers really use the full throat capacity of their saws..as I was trying to see why.. there aren't that many smaller high end saws on the market.. Hawk used to make a 16" but Bushton discontinued it.. I would be all over a new BM 16" saw with a slightly lower price.. but when looking at my needs vrs. price points.. The highest end saw that is VS and user friendly for fret work seems to be the EX-16.. and now that saw isn't even available anymore except in Canada.. so now we have only low end saws that are a 16" throat or a Hegner that isn't VS.. I will be saw shopping in the future and I already have a 20" DeWalt and a Hawk.. Probably going to be a new BM-20 Hawk.. but that 16" new name Excalibur from Canada and half the cost is really grabbing my attention.. too bad Hawk or some of the others didn't have a lower price option on a high end saw for those that really don't need it.. guess I seem to be the only one that doesn't need it though.. and if I did I will be keeping one of the two 20" saws I currently have.. As for the shop space.. I suppose you are all right about the footprint in the shop no really changing because most the saw stands are the same stand that will accommodate the larger saws..

Why modify a saw and probably void the warranty? Why not just take some pliers and bend the tips of the blades so you can cut from the side rather than from front to back if you need more throat space? Something I have done in the past for certain projects.. Just a thought..

Are you sure about that? When i was looking at those on some web site they was $999 I believe.. and now days with so many online sales.. most web sites now automatically change the currency to the location of the person shopping..

Hope everyone is having a great Mothers Day weekend.. After looking through many messages on here.. and seeing discussions about the new Seyco saw and whatnot.. I kind of wondered how many of the fellow scrollers really use the full throat capacity of the saw and what size saw is it that you do use.. I bring this up because it seems the 20" range saws seem to be what most have... Maybe due to being the price for anything larger than that simply because anything larger than that gets you into the high end saws such as the Hawk and Hegners.. not sure if there is any other saws that have a larger than 20 - 22 inch throat.. I have a 20" Dewalt and the 20" Hawk 220VS... rarely do I cut anything that needs a larger throat.. in fact I think there are only 2 items I have cut that needed that much and then really didn't if i had used spirals.. Those items were a wall guitar clock ( Steve Good pattern ) and some of the themed wall crosses from Sue Mey.. I typically cut ornaments, small desk clocks, and a few signs.. Be nice if some of the companies would make a smaller lower cost saw.. as I am guessing that many of you probably like me and could fairly easy get by with a 16" saw.. If... Hawk made a new 16" saw.. I most likely would be all over it.. believe hegner does... however they are single speed and no quick release tension at the front of the saw.. only other option that I know of is the EX-16 which is no longer made or sold in the USA anyway.. Anyway.. just thought I would see what everyone else's thought on the smaller saws.. I have seen some awesome deals lately on used Hawk 226's.. but I don't really need that large a saw and why hog up my shop space with a huge saw that I don't really need? If you was in the market for a new saw and money not a big issue.. do you buy the biggest saw.. or buy what will suit your needs and spend the extra money on wood or other tools.. I mean in my opinion a really large saw to most is just wasted money and shop space.. But then.. that is just my opinion since I rarely cut anything large enough that a 14 -16 inch saw would cut.. Kevin

One thing to consider when you say " you hear of many more problems with a DeWalt " .... Dewalts are a entry / mid level saw.. so I would have to say.. there are probably 2 - 3 times or more of those saws out there being used as opposed to the higher end saws.. so with more of them being used I suppose you'd hear more about any issues one might have. For what it's worth.. I am not trying to degrade any of the brands I had mentioned.. I do fretwork the most as well and find that my Hawk is just as easy as my DeWalt.. once I gave it some time to learn the ins and outs of the Hawk.. I will say that I don't think my Hawk is as smooth running through all the speed ranges as my DeWalt.. I've had my DeWalt since 2009.. run it about 30+ hours a week stack cutting ornaments cutting 3 - 6 at a time.. have rebuilt ( bearings & sleeves ) 2 times and ready for it again.. I don't have the money for a Hawk either.. nor do i have the money for a Seyco.. and I don't need the larger throat size.. If i were to get a saw.. I probably would buy the new named EX-16 equivalent saw.. Guess I am getting this thread off topic.. My reply above was more geared to the person that has the money saved to buy another new Hawk.. if they are used to the way a Hawk runs and have the money for another.. other than the shipping cost.. I think if it was me.. I'd still hold out for the Hawk.. simply because it's what they been used to and saved for a new one.. They are very well made..as is the other saws mentioned.. while I don't think the others are designed to do production type cutting such as I do.. On a side note: I'd like to have a large line-up of all the saws currently on the market.. and everyone gets a week with each one.. then decide what saw is best for their needs.. as I said.. all the saws are well built.. from the DeWalts on up.. for their intended use...but not all those saws fit the needs / wants of every scroll sawer.. Carry on with the Seyco discussion Kevin

Something to consider with a saw that is priced out so close to a Hawk.. and a couple reasons why I sort of feel as though the Hawk is really more bang for your buck.. First off is I think the quality of the Hawk is better than that of a EX's Not sure about the new seyco saw.. but I know the EX's have the same design as a DeWalt as for the open needle bearings.. Hawk uses sealed ball bearings.. Most any saw I have seen... has cast or stamped steel parts... I think most all the parts in a Hawk are machined by a machine shop.. should either of these companies go out of business.. it's be a lot easier to find a machine shop to make the parts you may end up needing than someone to cast a part without a mold.. or stamp out a piece of steel.. I sort of think that a Hawk would probably out last most of us with good care and maintenance.. Don't get me wrong.. I like EX's too.. and think the new Seyco saw is a nice saw.. but honestly think the Hawks will be around longer than us.. and not sure I can say the same on a EX or Seyco saw.. Plus buying a USA made saw keeps Americans to work.. Kevin

Great idea.. I am sure I will forget this when / if I make puzzles though.. LOL Also could do this to stick to the bottom of certain items or backs of portraits etc to mark / brand your products.. if you use clear coats you could probably spray right over it to be sure it stays on too.. got those little wheels rollin round in my head now.. LOL Kevin

I did a search for Hawks in your area on craiglist.. and if the one I seen is the one you're speaking of.. I'd think it would be worth the money providing that it is as good as it looks.. Appears to have the extras with it... ie foot switch, light, and dust cover for the machine.. While I got a great deal on mine at $100 by the time I made a few upgrades and minor repairs.. etc.. I now am pushing that $300 mark.. While as it turns out many of the items I purchased for it wasn't needed as it was user error LOL.. live and learn though. Anyway.. I love the saw now and that is what really matters... still much cheaper than a new one at $1200 + 150 shipping. On a side note.. now I am looking at a 226VS

I second that about people would be stripping out the clamp.. Steve also posted a thing awhile back about how he had trouble with one of the clamps holding his blade.. only to find that it had been tightened enough to bend the clamp open a little wider and you could clearly see in the video where the gap space where the blade fits in was much wider than the one on the other clamp.. You shouldn't have to tighten the screws that tight.. if you need it that tight you have a different problem going on like oily blades etc.. When you start having blade slippage.. you should clean up the clamps etc rather than reef down on the thumb screw.. JMO.. I did notice that screw in the review of the saw and thought it was a nice screw.. that said though.. maybe I am oddball of the group that like those round screws.. I thought I might like the round one better so I bought some for my DeWalt.. and i hated the round ones.. I like the standard one that it came with much better.. Just personal preference I guess.. Kevin

Thankfully when that does occur I usually have all the pieces to glue it back together.. however I have had a time or two where the piece fell through the hole in my say table and onto the floor with a milion other small pieces, LOL.. I learned to keep my floor clean now.. I typically clean up the floor everytime I change a blade or start / finish a project.. now most times I am able to find the piece I need..

I typically do not like to offer blade advice as far as what size for x size wood ect.. because I find that my preference changes from one saw to the next.. I can run a #3 on my DeWalt because it has the aggressive cutting with forward motion.. but on my Hawk I might use a #5 or larger.. Also like someone else said.. it really depends on the work at hand.. If anything.. I suggest buying some sample packs of different style blades and see what works best for you.. Blade charts are at best a starting point.. but even so.. I find that I hardly ever use the suggested blade.. I like cutting fast.. so I typically use a more aggressive blade that what is suggested.. so that goes back to my suggestion.. just fork out some cash and buy some sample packs and make some sawdust.. and see what works for you.. Kevin

I always wondered about those color stains.. I've heard of using food coloring to color wood with as well.. Kevin

Thank you all for the tips / suggestions.. For my current project I decided I was just going to do it the way I have always done it.. with the contrasting wood... Also I see someone mentioned framed items they use felt etc.. My father used to use heavy paper and would paint the paper background with a airbrush for a sunset scenery effect ect... was really kind of cool.. For the most part.. I use the foam sheets ( similar to the felt ) but its smooth and is easier to clean the dust out later.. I find that felt will almost attract dust to it and is a pain in the you know what to clean it.. Kevin

I think if this happen to me.. I be more worried about damage to my scroll saw motor or circuit board than the vac..If you're plugging this into the same circuit.. I think if I would going to do something like this.. I'd buy a separate foot switch for the vac. and plug it into a separate outlet / circuit. this I would mount a piece of flat metal to each of the peddles of the foot switch.. this way you only stepping on one foot switch but actually turning on two with them linked together.. A foot switch is cheaper than a vac every few months.. JMO Kevin

I'm not a very big fan of stained projects.. so most anything that I put a backer on I just use a contrasting wood and use mostly BB ply or oak ply and then use a walnut ply backer.. thinking of doing something different and maybe just using the BB ply for a backer that would be painted but was wondering a couple things.. 1) what type of paint do you all use? aerosol spray paint can or brush it on? 2) what glue for gluing the backer to the cutout that will stick good with the paint and hopefully dry clear in case you get some glue in a visible area? 3) How do you finish the piece? I typically dip most my projects in Danish oil.. If I do that before gluing the backer will the glue still stick considering the glue is going onto two finished pieces.. can one glue and then dip into Danish oil or would the Danish oil damage the painted surface.. Maybe use a spray poly.. not a big fan of that either on fretwork type stuff as it's difficult to get the clear onto the frets evenly.. Anyway, just wondering how you all do this.. I've done a few projects with paint several years ago and just wasn't real pleased with my final results.. yet I see many nice pieces you all post with painted backers.. Thanks, Kevin

If you have a sawmill near by that might be a good source of wood.. My brother has owned a sawmill business since the the mid 1970's.. all wood that is shorter than 4ft goes to the chipper...or as of recent he has been making sawdust out of it because it has been in more demand and higher priced than chips.. He cuts more scrap in one day than I could cut in a month or more.. only problem is.. it needs to be stickered ( dried ) before I can use it.. and it's rough cut.. great for a hobbyist I suppose.. but for me.. it's more cost effective to buy planed and ready to use lumber.. unless I had a high end planer and a small kiln drier.. LOL That all being said.. he does have his guys pull off to the side unique pieces and dries them for me such as birdseye maple, spalted maple, etc etc.. Oh.. also forgot to mention that I can typically have all the scraps I can use.. but.. I am the one that has to stand there and pull what I want off the line before it heads into the chipper.. which is not my idea of saving money standing there for a half day pulling a truckload pieces of green rough cut lumber that I have to sticker and plane before it's of any use to me.. He has a kiln but it's typically full and used 24-7 so I am out of luck on getting it dried.. Kevin

I don't really need another back-up saw.. as I have my Hawk 220VS as a back-up.. so I will pass on this saw I think.. I will wait until I find a deal on a saw that has some good features for scrolling fretwork.. I like the robust built saws.. and really just want to try a Hegner.. I have owned a lot of saws over the years.. rebuilding them tuning them etc etc.. just to do a comparison from one saw to the next.. I wait around for the deal that cannot be passed up.. snag it up and try it out tune it up etc etc.. then sometimes pass it onto another person to use.. I don't usually make any money doing this.. in fact I typically put more money into a saw than i get out of it.. but it's the experience of just trying a different model or brand to see how I like them..and just the hobby of tinkering with older equipment.. love to tinker around with things as much as I do scroll sawing... owned a not of saws... sold a lot of saws.. owned a few that I'd never own again.. owned a few that if the price was right I would buy again etc etc.. Just never had the opportunity to try a Hegner or a Excalibur yet.. I typically don't pay more than $100 for a saw.. but have went up to $150 a time or two for used saws.. Kevin

Except keep time,

Okay thank you.. So basically the one with the lever is the same as using my Hawk.. unfortunately the one I was interested in doesn't seem to have that release lever and also seems to be a single speed.. I thought I would grab it up for $135 but maybe I will have to think on it or pass.. Kevin

I'v been looking at a couple heger saws on craiglist. I see some of the saws have what looks like a tension lever near the top arm where the blade clamp is.. then I seen a saw with no lever at all.. How does one adjust the blade tension on these? From the knob at the back of the saw? If so that seems like a real pain for doing fretwork.. Kevin

Actually, the best clocks to get are the USA made motors.. and the only place I know to get them is from clockparts.com.. this is for just the motors... clock inserts and fit-ups are a whole nother story as I have yet found a good one in anything larger than a 1-7/16"

You don't have to carve out the back of the wood if you do not have the tools and equipment.. but they do hang on the wall closer to the wall if you do carve out the back. A tip to carve out the back if you do not have a router... I have a large set of forstner drill bits.. I sometimes use ( I believe ) a 3" forstner bit to drill out the area where the clock will set to set the clock into the wood some so it's not sticking way out the back making the clock hang out away from the wall some.. but like I said.. you don't have to do this as you can buy whatever length shaft you need.. Here is a guide for wood thickness to help you decide on shaft length: 1/2" For 1/8" thick material 5/8" for 1/4" thick material 3/4" for 3/8" material 7/8" for 1/2" thick material 1" for 5/8" thick material 1-1/4" for 3/4" thick material This was taken from the web site where I buy my clock motors.. Hope that helps you, Kevin

I wouldn't count on that statement of "No one cares about a few $100.. My cousin works for the state of Michigan doing audits on people who sell online etc that 1) doesn't claim their use tax 2) are not collecting and reporting their sales tax.. she said that many states are really cracking down on this... Use tax is a tax that you should be paying on products that you purchase online that you didn't pay any tax for.. When she found out I was selling my works online she warned me about how the state and the IRS is really cracking down on those that are saying they are just a hobby and not really reporting their earnings..

That is why I said the Hawk is very well made saw... it is built for commercial use.. unlike the DeWalt... I got tired of replacing the DeWalts under warranty and took one apart myself and replaced the bearings / sleeves and added my own high quality grease.. I can get about 2 years out of it now before needing the front exposed section rebuilt again.. I've thought about looking into modifying it on this next rebuilt that it desperately needs again.. and looking into replacing those lousy open bearings with some sort of sealed bearings.. that would help a lot especially on the front portion of the saw where the sawdust falls right down onto the top of the needle bearings in the lower rocker assembly... guess you do get what you pay for.. certainly not designed to run 8 hours a day.. I'd like to take a excalibur saw apart or even the new Seyco saw ( basically a modified excalibur ) and see what they use for bearings...as they are the same basic design as a DeWalt as far as the arms and internal parts are very similar.. Probably why excalibur built that little dust collection deal on the bottom of the table.. to help keep dust out of those bearings.. suppose I could build something similar on my DeWalt. I intend to purchase another high end saw.. and intend to take a serious look into the newer Hawks.. with the adjustable lower arm..

I believe only the 14 - 16 inch saws had the tension lever at the back of the saw... the 20 - 26 inch saws had the lever up front... I would certainly test drive one if you are used to using a DeWalt... I bought a Hawk 220VS last fall for $100 that was said to be barely used.. well it was used more than barely but I don't think it was used a lot.. Got the Hawk foot pedal switch and light with it.. I upgraded the blower hose with the adjustable kind like the DeWalt has.. ( Hawk sells a kit for doing this ).. I love sawing on the Hawk.. but.. I find that after sawing ( production style ) for the last 6-8 years on my DeWalt..I have grown used to the aggressiveness of the DeWalt and I feel the Hawk is way too slow.. also the SPM is only ( I believe ) 1500 on the Hawk while it's 1750 on the DeWalt.. I will say the Hawk is a very well made saw and cuts nice.. I just got too used to stack cutting and production type cutting.. I typically cut 1/2" + on a regular basis.. If I am just going to cut 3/8" or less material I absolutely love the Hawk.. it does awesome with the thin wood.. and my DeWalt is too aggressive for the thin cutting.. The newest Hawk saws have an adjustable lower arm that will change how aggressive the saw cuts... Now I would love to try one of these out.. and they also have a faster SPM of 1750 I believe.. The older Hawks ( like mine) and probably all of the VS models have the lower barrel clamps. I was curious about the blade movement between the DeWalt and Hawk saws the other day so i went out to the shop and put a credit card behind the blade on both saws.. I was amazed to find that the movement is almost the same.... SO... what makes the DeWalt so much more aggressive? I think I figured that out but plan to do another test to see if I am right.. I think it's the lower blade clamps.. On the DeWalt the clamp is fixed to the back of the slot in the clamp and is fairly rigid .. on the Hawk the barrel is allowed to flex.. so I think if you was to push on the blade while cutting the barrel will just spin toward the back.. I believe the DeWalts clamping design makes the blade more ridged than the Hawks clamping.. I can cut probably 2 times faster on with my DeWalt than I can with my Hawk.. i have done this comparison several times with the exact same blade and while cutting out the same project.. In the middle of a cut I have stopped on one saw and took my blade etc over to the other saw... even if I run the SPM approximately the same speed.. the DeWalt cuts faster.. Really like to try the new BM series Hawks with that adjustable lower arm! Kevin