Advice needed regarding used scroll saws to consider.

[Skyhawk7]

I am on my 2nd Wen 16-inch scroll saw.  My focus now is on making wood toys.  I work with a lot of hardwood, mostly Oak.  I use the best blades and try to go slow with the Wen, letting the tool do the work.  But it just doesn't seem like the best fit for me... I'm asking it to do too much for a budget saw.  I have been browsing the Facebook Marketplace for used saws in my area to see what's available that would be an upgrade over my Wen—something better suited to thicker Oak work.  I am seeing a number of Hawk 20-inch saws within my price range.  And they're close enough to me that I could drive there and check them out.  I don't see many of the BM series saws, but a lot of the RBI line of saws, like the Ultra and G4 series.  Would these be good options for what I'm using my scroll saw for (toymaking with heavier Oak)?  Are there other used scroll saws that you'd recommend I consider?  I see a number of Hegner saws advertised, too.  Are there Hegner models that you'd recommend I consider?  One thing I like about the Hawk saws is that they are manufactured in the USA, and it seems like parts are easy to get.  And for that matter, I could probably drive to the small town where the manufacturer (Bushton Manufacturing) still repairs the saws for a reasonable fee.  

And if you have any suggestions for me about this, I'd appreciate the help.  Thanks in advance for the help.

[BadBob]

17 hours ago, Skyhawk7 said:

heavier Oak

Please explain what you mean by heavier oak. 

I make lots of toys.

My old Taiwan-made Excalibur EX-21 easily cuts 3/4-inch oak, and I routinely cut 1-1/2-inch wood and occasionally 2-inch, but I would not recommend it for that. 

I had an older Hawk saw that cut very well, but the round blade clamps drove me nuts. 

I also have a Pegas saw that works very well for me. 

 

[Scrappile]

For heavy work a Hawk or Hegner is the way to go.  But before purchasing a used one, consider posting it here and letting people give input.  Some older Hawks have clamps that many did not like.  Does not mean you would not like them, but you should make yourself aware of them.  Some older Hawks may not have parts available.  Most parts are available for Hegners, but they are expensive.  Older Hawks are bottom feeders only and all Hegners are bottom feed; some people do not like that.

[Skyhawk7]

2 hours ago, BadBob said:

Please explain what you mean by heavier oak. 

I make lots of toys.

My old Taiwan-made Excalibur EX-21 easily cuts 3/4-inch oak, and I routinely cut 1-1/2-inch wood and occasionally 2-inch, but I would not recommend it for that. 

I had an older Hawk saw that cut very well, but the round blade clamps drove me nuts. 

I also have a Pegas saw that works very well for me. 

 

Afterward, I thought that "heavy Oak" was not very helpful.  I have a source for 4/4 and 6/4 White and Red Oak, and I find myself using those boards a lot.  My current toy project is making two rocking horses for two of my grandchildren (the attached picture is what I'm working on).  The plans call for gluing 3/4-inch boards together to create the thicker stock.  I'm not selling anything, but I just want to make some vintage toys for all of my grandchildren as they grow up (they're all young now... the oldest are toddlers, old enough for rocking horses). 

My oldest is crazy about trains, so I think my next project for him will be a train set.  My oldest granddaughter likes farm animals, and I thought I'd try a tractor with a wagon and farm animals she can play with. When she is older, I really want to do a nice vintage dollhouse (more fine work there).  I have primarily made furniture over the past 30 or so years and never considered toy making until recently.  I must admit that I am excited about all the cool possibilities.  It looks a lot more fun than furniture making... but every so often I do build furniture for our house to keep Mrs Skyhawk tolerating my woodworking hobby.

The Wen will do Oak at 3/4", but I would like a saw that is an upgrade with a deeper throat and LOL, I'm an old guy now and would like to treat myself to a nicer saw... not a need as much as a want.  I liked the fact that the Hawks made by Bushton are USA-made in a small midwestern town (I live in the Midwest).  I might just buy a new saw from them; the BM-20 looks like it would be good for what I do.  I'm just trying to get an idea of the possibilities, used vs new, and the various options.

Hope I didn't talk your ear off here.  I'm thankful that I can run some of this by people more knowledgeable than I am.  Thanks for answering my post, I appreciate it.

[Skyhawk7]

1 hour ago, Scrappile said:

For heavy work a Hawk or Hegner is the way to go.  But before purchasing a used one, consider posting it here and letting people give input. 

Thanks, I will do that.  And I may break down and buy a new saw instead of used.  I go back and forth about it.  Thanks for the reply and help.  I appreciate it.

[rjweb]

Keep us posted as what you have decided on, RJ

[rash_powder]

You are looking to make a full size rocking horse?  

A bandsaw would be a bit more appropriate for that size of project.  A 10" at the smallest.  Ample power and throat capacity.  14" saws can usually be found fairly cheap if you look for a while.  In my area about $150.  Smallish things can be made on them also.  I wouldn't say scrollsaw small but you could make a 1" or maybe a 3/4" wheel pretty easily.  Unfortunately it would not do internal pockets without a little bit of trickery.  

[Scrappile]

One other thought, Dave. If you put in your profile where you are located, or approximate location,  there are those here that love to shop for others and they may look in your location and make suggestions.  Like Craigslist, Facebook market.  I, for one, love to spend other people's money.

[Skyhawk7]

1 hour ago, rash_powder said:

You are looking to make a full size rocking horse?  

A bandsaw would be a bit more appropriate for that size of project.  A 10" at the smallest.  Ample power and throat capacity.  14" saws can usually be found fairly cheap if you look for a while.  In my area about $150.  Smallish things can be made on them also.  I wouldn't say scrollsaw small but you could make a 1" or maybe a 3/4" wheel pretty easily.  Unfortunately it would not do internal pockets without a little bit of trickery.  

This is a small rocking horse for a 2 or 3-year-old.  So far, it's going well.  I have until Christmas to finish them - one for my grandson and one for my granddaughter (from two different families: one is my son's child, and the other is my daughter's child).  I've never had a bandsaw, but most of the toys will not be this big; rather, they will be small toys that are more appropriate for a scroll saw.  

[Skyhawk7]

59 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

One other thought, Dave. If you put in your profile where you are located, or approximate location,  there are those here that love to shop for others and they may look in your location and make suggestions.  Like Craigslist, Facebook market.  I, for one, love to spend other people's money.

My hope is to find something I can drive to, look over, and pick up if I like it.  But I won't be doing this until January or so.  I'm from Central Illinois, but often travel near the St. Louis area and Wisconsin.  Western Iowa or eastern Indiana would be easy trips for me, too.  I just updated my profile, thanks for the tip.  

[BadBob]

1 hour ago, Skyhawk7 said:

Afterward, I thought that "heavy Oak" was not very helpful.  I have a source for 4/4 and 6/4 White and Red Oak, and I find myself using those boards a lot.  My current toy project is making two rocking horses for two of my grandchildren (the attached picture is what I'm working on).  The plans call for gluing 3/4-inch boards together to create the thicker stock.  I'm not selling anything, but I just want to make some vintage toys for all of my grandchildren as they grow up (they're all young now... the oldest are toddlers, old enough for rocking horses). 

My oldest is crazy about trains, so I think my next project for him will be a train set.  My oldest granddaughter likes farm animals, and I thought I'd try a tractor with a wagon and farm animals she can play with. When she is older, I really want to do a nice vintage dollhouse (more fine work there).  I have primarily made furniture over the past 30 or so years and never considered toy making until recently.  I must admit that I am excited about all the cool possibilities.  It looks a lot more fun than furniture making... but every so often I do build furniture for our house to keep Mrs Skyhawk tolerating my woodworking hobby.

The Wen will do Oak at 3/4", but I would like a saw that is an upgrade with a deeper throat and LOL, I'm an old guy now and would like to treat myself to a nicer saw... not a need as much as a want.  I liked the fact that the Hawks made by Bushton are USA-made in a small midwestern town (I live in the Midwest).  I might just buy a new saw from them; the BM-20 looks like it would be good for what I do.  I'm just trying to get an idea of the possibilities, used vs new, and the various options.

Hope I didn't talk your ear off here.  I'm thankful that I can run some of this by people more knowledgeable than I am.  Thanks for answering my post, I appreciate it.

 

I made this toddler rocking pony for my grandson. I made it from southern yellow pine and finished it with shellac. I used a bandsaw for most of the cuts because southern yellow pine is a bear to cut with a scroll saw. After almost ten years, it is still in use, and my grandson still rides it at years old. This aggravates he much younger sister, who claimed it was hers as soon as she saw it the first time. She took one look at it and said, "Mine". My house is full of wooden toys. There are toys that my grandkids play with today that I made 30-40 years ago. Wood toys can be extremely durable and repairable. 

 

[Scrappile]

I still have the rocking horse my dad made me 80 years ago.  It has served me and just about every toddler that has been born in the immediate family since.  Still going strong, now pastured at my Daughters house, waiting to be corralled at some great-grandchild's home someday.

[OCtoolguy]

Well, here is my take. I don't make anything as thick or bulky as you are doing but I do love buying tools. I don't have the budget for anything new that is worth owning so I have shopped the used market over the years. I started with a used Dewalt 788 and went from there to a used Ex21, Canadian built. Then a Hegner came along so I did my homework and bought it. It developed a speed problem that looked like it might end up costing me a bunch of money. Those German parts aren't cheap. Anyway, I sold it and found a like new Hawk 226 Ultra with less than 20 hours on it. I stole it at $225. But, it was just too big for my little shop. I did like the saw but had to let it go. Then another Hegner came along for a very good price. Cheap enough that it allowed me the extra money to upgrade the things it didn't have. I found another Ex, a 16 inch, for a super price so I bought it. I now have all 3 saws and don't plan on selling any of them. Unless of course, something comes along that I just have to have. I still would like a Hawk but the next one will be a 20 incher. Oh, and by the way, I also have a Delta 14 inch band saw that is probably the handiest tool I own for those quick cuts on something thick. The thing that I need more than anything else is space. My tiny shop has outgrown itself and I now have to keep a couple of my less used tools outdoors, covered up with barbecue covers. Best of luck to you in your search. This is the best place for info on just about any saw there is. I learned a ton about Hegners from @CharleyE and the Hawks from @Kmmcrafts (Kevin). Either of these saws requires a lot of questions to be answered if shopping used. Especially the Hawks.

[Skyhawk7]

58 minutes ago, OCtoolguy said:

The thing that I need more than anything else is space.

I can relate to that.  I have a very small workshop in our garage.  My wife had the idea years ago of putting my workbench and saw tables on heavy-duty wheels.  I can roll what I'm using outside in good weather.  The neighbors like to stop by and talk, so it often takes twice as long to do stuff.  But I'm retired and enjoy solving the world's problems with them.  LOL, I sometimes see them coming down the street with something that needs fixed... or they ask me to come over to their home to look at something broken that needs simple carpenter work.  I have never been able to say no to anything like that.  At the end of the day, I roll my stuff back into the garage and put it away.  In cold Illinois weather, I stay in the garage.  Maybe someday I'll get heat out there.  I thought about that band saw suggestion (I've never had one), but I'm not sure where I'd put it.  I have a buddy in town who I worked with for many years, and he's also retired. He has all the nice woodworking equipment, and I take things over to his house when I need something like that.  It's a good excuse to visit with him.  So probably no band saw for me, for now anyway.

[TAIrving]

I sometimes look at Marketplace or Craig's list, search for "Scroll Saw".  I look to see what is offered for sale and ask myself "why are so many of those are for sale?"  I see lots of the entry level saws, a good many DeWalts and a good many Hawks.  I seldom see a Pegas, Seyco, King or, for that matter, any of the Taiwanese manufactured EX clones.  And I almost never see a Hagner newer than 20 years old. 

So I ask "Why?".    The answer of course is supply vs demand:  the one group has more sellers and the other has more wanting to buy them.  People who have a Taiwanese EX clone or a newer Hegner are keeping them.  

[Skyhawk7]

5 hours ago, TAIrving said:

I sometimes look at Marketplace or Craig's list, search for "Scroll Saw".  I look to see what is offered for sale and ask myself "why are so many of those are for sale?"  I see lots of the entry level saws, a good many DeWalts and a good many Hawks.  I seldom see a Pegas, Seyco, King or, for that matter, any of the Taiwanese manufactured EX clones.  And I almost never see a Hagner newer than 20 years old. 

So I ask "Why?".    The answer of course is supply vs demand:  the one group has more sellers and the other has more wanting to buy them.  People who have a Taiwanese EX clone or a newer Hegner are keeping them.  

I see the same thing with the newer Hawks (BM-20 and BM-26 models that have been on the market for 13 years).  They seem to be unicorns in the used marketplace.  I do see a lot of the older Hawk models.  Parts are still carried by Bushton (the manufacturer of Hawk scroll saws), and they are supposed to be pretty reasonable.  And they still recondition the old models as well.  They charge $60/hour for it, though.  They also provide phone support if you purchase new parts and want to install them yourself.  However, I'm beginning to understand that if I want a BM series model, I'm probably going to have to buy a new one or overpay for a used one if it becomes available.  The other option would be to purchase one of the old saw models and try to recondition it myself (the parts that may need it due to wear and tear).  

 

[kmmcrafts]

8 hours ago, TAIrving said:

I sometimes look at Marketplace or Craig's list, search for "Scroll Saw".  I look to see what is offered for sale and ask myself "why are so many of those are for sale?"  I see lots of the entry level saws, a good many DeWalts and a good many Hawks.  I seldom see a Pegas, Seyco, King or, for that matter, any of the Taiwanese manufactured EX clones.  And I almost never see a Hagner newer than 20 years old. 

So I ask "Why?".    The answer of course is supply vs demand:  the one group has more sellers and the other has more wanting to buy them.  People who have a Taiwanese EX clone or a newer Hegner are keeping them.  

You also have to consider the production numbers of the saws out there and also price points as to why so many are for sale..  Like there are probably more DeWalts out there than any other saw.. some enjoy them while others may have had one of those real aggressive cutting dewalts and realized the hobby wasn't for them.. if they had bought a better one they might not have left the hobby.. I believe there is probably 2-3 times more Hawks out there than Hegners..  Pricing plays a roll in that as well as dealers.. I'm not sure there are any dealers other than just 1 for Hegners.. but I believe Hawk had  some tool dealers that sold the saws for them.. 

[kmmcrafts]

On 10/30/2025 at 4:49 PM, Skyhawk7 said:

I can relate to that.  I have a very small workshop in our garage.  My wife had the idea years ago of putting my workbench and saw tables on heavy-duty wheels.  I can roll what I'm using outside in good weather.  The neighbors like to stop by and talk, so it often takes twice as long to do stuff.  But I'm retired and enjoy solving the world's problems with them.  LOL, I sometimes see them coming down the street with something that needs fixed... or they ask me to come over to their home to look at something broken that needs simple carpenter work.  I have never been able to say no to anything like that.  At the end of the day, I roll my stuff back into the garage and put it away.  In cold Illinois weather, I stay in the garage.  Maybe someday I'll get heat out there.  I thought about that band saw suggestion (I've never had one), but I'm not sure where I'd put it.  I have a buddy in town who I worked with for many years, and he's also retired. He has all the nice woodworking equipment, and I take things over to his house when I need something like that.  It's a good excuse to visit with him.  So probably no band saw for me, for now anyway.

If you have a very small shop then you might not want a Hawk scroll saw.. they're big and take up a large floor space with their 4 legged stand.. A Hegner looks like a toy with the small footprint their 3 legged stands take up.. Either are wonderful saws if you get the right optioned one as some of the older ones didn't have all the bells and whistles that the newer ones come with.. even though they look all the same until you really look closely and know what to look for... that is why we suggest showing us what saw you might be looking at.. The Hawks all look almost the same from the very first ones made to the ones they make today.. same goes for the Hegners.. there are only minor changes in appearance but knowing what to look for and getting the bells and whistles of the new ones will make the sawing experience much better..

[Skyhawk7]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

If you have a very small shop then you might not want a Hawk scroll saw.. they're big and take up a large floor space with their 4 legged stand.. A Hegner looks like a toy with the small footprint their 3 legged stands take up.. Either are wonderful saws if you get the right optioned one as some of the older ones didn't have all the bells and whistles that the newer ones come with.. even though they look all the same until you really look closely and know what to look for... that is why we suggest showing us what saw you might be looking at..

I did notice the Hawk saws require a good-sized space in the workshop.  However, I do have a great space available, and it would fit well with my small work area.  It's a small workshop, but over the years, it has evolved into a great workflow space for me.  I think one of the messages I read on the forum over the past few days mentioned that you were a valuable resource for information on the Hawk saws.  I'm leaning towards buying a new Hawk BM-20.  That's more expensive than I was planning on spending, so it will take a few more months to afford the purchase.  It looks like it would serve my needs well, and for the long haul (instead of replacing these Wen saws... I'm on my 2nd Wen). 

What do you see as the pros and cons of the BM-20?

A "Plan-B" would be to get a used 20-inch Hawk.  If I were to go that route, what models would you recommend that I consider?  And a final question I had is about buying a used saw, going through it, and refurbishing it, so I'm starting out with a solid saw in excellent shape.  Is that something that is worth considering?  Buying new parts from Bushton and replacing certain old ones on the used saw?  It sounds like Hawk parts are not overly expensive.  I thought that might be a way to begin with a solid saw that would last a long, long time.  What are your thoughts on this... I'd welcome any input.

Edited October 31, 2025 by Skyhawk7

[kmmcrafts]

46 minutes ago, Skyhawk7 said:

What do you see as the pros and cons of the BM-20?

A "Plan-B" would be to get a used 20-inch Hawk.  If I were to go that route, what models would you recommend that I consider?  And a final question I had is about buying a used saw, going through it, and refurbishing it, so I'm starting out with a solid saw in excellent shape.  Is that something that is worth considering?  Buying new parts from Bushton and replacing certain old ones on the used saw?  It sounds like Hawk parts are not overly expensive.  I thought that might be a way to begin with a solid saw that would last a long, long time.  What are your thoughts on this... I'd welcome any input.

The BM-20 is a great saw but they're pricey.. I bought a new BM-26 back in 2018 and it's been a great saw.. I also have a 226VS Ultra model and I think that saw is actually a tougher built saw.. both are great but the 226 Ultra feels like a better built more solid saw than the BM-26. The plus to getting the Ultra is price and not much to go wrong with them.. Biggest wear points are the tension cam at the front of the upper arm and the wedge shape at the back of the upper arm.. Both parts are only around $20 - $50.. for the most part not much else goes wrong with these.. Probably could pick up a good used saw for less than $400 - $500 range.. Usually a lot of them for sale in that price range and many times less money than that.

 

[Oldmansbike]

I have the 226 ultra that I bought new in 96 and a 20 inch ultra made in 99 that I bought used for $300. The only thing I’ve replaced on the 226 is the spring in the back and it’s had a lot of use over the years. The 220 I’ve haven’t had to replace anything on it but it doesn’t get as much use as the 226 because I prefer it over the 220. They are expensive new but you will never have to buy another one. By the way I bought the 220 in central Illinois about 4 years ago and it hadn’t had hardly any use. I live in southeast Iowa.

[BadBob]

On 10/31/2025 at 8:19 AM, TAIrving said:

People who have a Taiwanese EX clone or a newer Hegner are keeping them.  

Yep, that is exactly what I think. I have been continuously searching for scroll saws across three platforms for several years. I see mostly junk saws and a few old Hawks and Hegners. Occasionally, there is a Chinese EX-21. I have only seen one Taiwan-made EX-21, and I bought it. Used it for a couple of years and rebuilt it. I found an unused Pegas and bought it, and sold my Hawk. I had to make a two-day road trip to pick it up, but it was so cheap that it was worth it, and I got to visit with family and friends. The Pegas was not posted as a scroll saw. I stumbled across it while looking for something else.

People tend to hang on to things that are of good quality. 

[TAIrving]

25 minutes ago, BadBob said:

 Occasionally, there is a Chinese EX-21. I have only seen one Taiwan-made EX-21, and I bought it. Used it for a couple of years and rebuilt it. 

People tend to hang on to things that are of good quality. 

Me too.  I found one Taiwan-made EX-21 clone, a Seyco ST-21, and I bought it.  It is smooth as silk but I have not used it yet, it is my back-up saw.  

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, BadBob said:

Yep, that is exactly what I think. I have been continuously searching for scroll saws across three platforms for several years. I see mostly junk saws and a few old Hawks and Hegners. Occasionally, there is a Chinese EX-21. I have only seen one Taiwan-made EX-21, and I bought it. Used it for a couple of years and rebuilt it. I found an unused Pegas and bought it, and sold my Hawk. I had to make a two-day road trip to pick it up, but it was so cheap that it was worth it, and I got to visit with family and friends. The Pegas was not posted as a scroll saw. I stumbled across it while looking for something else.

People tend to hang on to things that are of good quality. 

 

57 minutes ago, TAIrving said:

Me too.  I found one Taiwan-made EX-21 clone, a Seyco ST-21, and I bought it.  It is smooth as silk but I have not used it yet, it is my back-up saw.  

You also rarely see any of the "newer" Hawks for sale either.. The G4 and the new BM series are hardly ever up for sale.. These would be 2005 and newer saws..  "some" G4's come up now and then.. and I think I've seen maybe 2 BM series for sale.. But the G4 I think were made from 2005 - 2010 ish and that is when the BM series came out after those G4's. I see way more 2002+ Hegners than I do Hawks for sale.. but that's not a lot of Hegners either, but way more common than the Hawk.  

Edit To Add:

You also have to consider the fact that most of the Hawk and Hegners out there for sale were made before Excalibur, DeWalt types were even a thing yet.. Many of the ones you see for sale are from the 1980's and 90's

Edited November 1, 2025 by kmmcrafts

[Skyhawk7]

49 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

You also rarely see any of the "newer" Hawks for sale either.. The G4 and the new BM series are hardly ever up for sale.. These would be 2005 and newer saws..  "some" G4's come up now and then.. and I think I've seen maybe 2 BM series for sale.. But the G4 I think were made from 2005 - 2010 ish and that is when the BM series came out after those G4's. I see way more 2002+ Hegners than I do Hawks for sale.. but that's not a lot of Hegners either, but way more common than the Hawk.  

That's what I am finding out now as I follow the used scroll saw marketplace postings.  I also contacted Bushton, the manufacturer of the Hawks, and asked if they had any factory-reconditioned BM series saws for sale.  Over the years, I have purchased factory-rebuilt items and have never been disappointed.  I thought that maybe the Hawks might be available.  Anyway, the lady who helped me was very nice and patiently told me that they wouldn't see any BM series in for a while (they came out only 13 years ago). These saws are built to last a lifetime, and more.  She said that yes, every once in a while, they may get in an older model, which was made before Bushton owned the company (the original company goes back almost 100 years, and made scroll saws as far back as 40 years ago).  But she said they don't get many in for repairs, even the older models (if I understood her correctly).  These are USA-made saws that are built to last a long, long time.  I felt a bit foolish after contacting them... but they were very kind and good and patient with me.  I was accustomed to my Wen tool experiences, although Wen was good and did replace my last saw that had died.  Hawks are different than what I am used to.  This is different than a big-box store purchase.  And nothing wrong with a big-box store (LOL, I practically live at our local Lowe's).  But buying one of these Hawk scroll saws is different than what I am used to.  Real people who are really helpful and who are very proud of what they make.  I am going to buy one of their saws for sure now.  New, if I can save up a bit more money, or a used VS Ultra model, if I can't.  I like the idea of them being manufactured in a small town in the Midwest USA by a company that actually has a human being answering the phone.  They have affordable parts readily available - and they fix what they sell for a reasonable fee, too, if you ever need them to.  

Edited November 1, 2025 by Skyhawk7