Dave Monk Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 I stopped by Bushton today to test drive a Hawk. I think it is a good machine but I am really concerned about trying to learn to top feed with it. Being the blade holders are not solid it seems totally awkward. The girl showing it to me said I need to learn to bottom feed. I'm an old dog and not great at learning new tricks. Any feedback is appreciated. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 From the beginning of time, scroll saws were meant to be bottom fed! Scrolling Steve, Oldmansbike, SCROLLSAW703 and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgman Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Scrappile said: From the beginning of time, scroll saws were meant to be bottom fed! Until Excalibur and DeWalts were created! SCROLLSAW703 and GrampaJim 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdv464 Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 Dave, I bought a BM20 about a year ago thinking the same thing!! (wrong) I was really disappointed, nothing like the Excalibur. to much movement in the blade holders!!!!! rdv464 SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 Both my Hawks are before the redesign in 2005 ish so mine are only bottom feeders.. that works out good for me as I grew up a bottom feeder, LOL That said.. I could see one having issues with these style blade clamps.. even as a bottom feeder.. they was a little tricky to get used to.. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotshot Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) Your problem is that you got spoiled by the 788/EX style saws :-) Your are right, those swinging clamps are very awkward, and it really really really bothered me, at least at first. Given a choice, I would prefer stationary clamps, but it becomes less an issue the more time I have on the saw. The part of the blade changes that I thought was most awkward, was getting that blade down into the little hole on the top of the bottom clamp. I found out that if you lean that bottom clamp over, you can rotate the clamp up, slipping that blade into the hole every time, as easy as cake, so my biggest complaint became a non-issue once I figured that out. How was the vibration in the 7 to 7.5 range? My Hawk does pretty decently outside the 7 to 7.5 range. Not as smooth as the Ex, but pretty darn good considering the amount of mass that saw is throwing around. The saw is not useable inside the harmonic range. Unfortunately, that harmonic range seem to be right where my comfort zone is for speed, so avoiding that range keeps me a little off balance. I'm still getting used to that. ----Randy Edited October 11, 2017 by hotshot I un-rambled my comment SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) I love my Hegner..... The more I use it the more I love it. I serviced mine the other day. Put a drop of oil on each of the two pivot points as the book say and went back to work.... Edited October 11, 2017 by Scrappile SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 45 minutes ago, dgman said: Until Excalibur and DeWalts were created! Had both,,, still a carp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjweb Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 Are you able to test drive a hegner saw, it would be a good comparison, if you lived in Delaware you could go to woodcraft or hegner, RJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolf Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 It is like any new tool that is different from what you are used to. I top feed my G4-26 on all larger fretwork projects. feeding the blade from the top down and clamping becomes second nature very quickly. I will say that I don't like the new upper arm hold down as much as what was on the older G4. The G4 holder keeps the arm down freeing up both hands to tighten the lower clamp . Then when you tension the blade it automatically releases the holder. On the new saws that is not automatic, not a big deal but just an extra movement. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrampaJim Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 I used to bottom feed on my Dewalt, started on a Craftsman so I didn't know there was a better way. Then I left the dark side and learned to top feed. Never going back! Its the only way to fly. Getting too old to bend and twist looking for the holes bottom feeding. dgman and SCROLLSAW703 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjweb Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 I have a new jet saw, bottom feed only, never had the chance to top feed, RJ SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredfret Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 I top feed my BM26 for 90% of what I cut much easier for fretwork. Bottom feeding only for open work and then mostly for changing blades in a hurry or practice. It did take me about a week to get used to the blade holders but now only a couple seconds slower than bottom feeding with no project on the saw and I don't have to try to find the dang hole to put the blade thru. Takes about the same time to top feed a Dewalt as the Hawk. Fredfret Wichita, ks BM26 and DW788 SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I am not trying to be a wise guy here, I am trying to learn. I am a bottom feeder, always have been. I do not " bend over, stand on my head or anything like that to bottom feed. It is second nature to me. I have tried top feeding and have had no success. I most often do intricate fret work. To feed a 2/0 size blade down through a hole drilled with a #68 or #70 drill bit , against the direction of the blade teeth, through a very small zero clearance hole in the table top, is just impossible to me. Could some one please tell me how that is possible? I would love to see a video of it. Again, please, please do not take this as a wise guy being difficult. I can see the advantage to being able to top feed, but I just don't see how it is possible or feasible in the circumstances I just described. I want to but so far it has not even come close to working for me. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCROLLSAW703 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) the BM's are designed to be top or bottomfeeders. Personally, I learned to bottom feed, & have tried to top feed, & all i accomplished was bend blades. So Bottom feed for this ol' jay bird! I mark the holes with a red sharpie so i can see the entry holes better. Out of curiosity Dave, if you don't mind me askin', how was your visit at bushton? what did you think of the help & their set up? The reason I'm askin', Not only as a Hawk owner & user, but, my wife & I are very close to the folks there. We have been told we're considered "family." Last year, they a invited me to the Kansas State Fair to demonstrate for them, along with others. In the 26 years I've been scrolling, I've never been asked to do anything like that. As it turned out, I had back issues & couldn't go. But have been asked again for next years' show. I hope you decide on the BM. They'll take care of you & the saw. Edited October 12, 2017 by SCROLLSAW703 kmmcrafts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCROLLSAW703 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm with you, Scrap pile. I don't have to be a trapeze artist to bottom feed. I use #0/2, #0/3 blades often in detail work. Cuttin' out wheat heads & corn cobs, feathers, tractor engines in the tractor, sunflower heads, etc. I don't have any issues. But like you, I'd see a video of it done. Actually see someone do it in a project. kmmcrafts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Just wanted to add a bit more.. I don't think it matters what saw you try.. ANY saw that is set up different than what you are currently used to using is going to be awkward to get used to.. I like to mess with different types of scroll saws.. I've owned many many different brands.. with different blade clamp styles etc.. each saw was a period of trial and error until I learned what worked for me.. Gotta tell you.. I started sawing with a old Delta 2 speed saw 40-560 type 2.. quickset II blade clamps.. Took a while to learn to operate those clamps.. but I'd never used another saw before.. then came a ryobi with special wrench to change blades.. I hated that thing but did get used to it after a short time.. Then came thumb screws on a Dremel I had.. Thought those was the dumbest things ever as I felt like no way can a guy get those stupid little screws tight enough to hold a blade.. learned to love them and that I don't need to use pliers to tighten them down more Again... when i bought my first Hawk last year.. after a week or so I was about ready to give that thing away or put it in the trash can, LOL made up a lot of new cuss words too .. most of the first 3-4 months I had that saw.. I only used it a handful of times.. mainly because the time of year I bought it was my busy time of year.. I needed to production cut and cut fast as possible.. just wasn't efficient enough on the Hawk for that type of cutting.. but anytime I had a chance I was playing on the Hawk.. slowly got used to the blade changes etc.. Now I can pretty much cut almost as fast on either saw.. Hawk is a little slower cutting than the DeWalt due to the aggressive nature of the DeWalts.. Would love to have a new BM series saw to work on since I can dial in the blade to where I feel like I can cut at a more comfy speed.. Mine has two setting for blade adjustment.. the one is slow going but wow is it great for fine detail work.. the other setting seems to be slightly too aggressive for my type of work.. other than I can stop and change it when doing long outside cuts such as cutting a base for a clock etc.. Anyway I guess my point is.. probably any saw you decide to go with outside of what you use now.. it's going to be awkward to use at first.. I will say though.. I do think my Hawk was the hardest one to get the hang of using.. as a hobbyist I wouldn't worry about it because I'd have all the time in the world to play around with a saw.. but as a business that relies on a comfy fast reliable saw.. well.. lets just say the saw sat for a few months until I was at a point to take my time to learn the saw.. And for the record.. I think every saw should come with the old Delta style quickset II blade clamp.. no thumb screws.. no nothing.. just a cam lever much like the tension lever on the Hawk.. BTW.. that old delta had a tension lever like that too.. only downfall was the lower clamp had a special tool to use.. Also for my type of work.. I think that new Jet saw with the single action clamping / tension in one lever is quite nice looking.. often think I'd like that feature.. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolf Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Brad (scrollsaw703), lucky you to be so close to the Hawks birthplace. My dealings with Nilus and his family have been very pleasant. I have been a big fan of the Hawk saws since I bought my G4 in 2005. Suggest to Nilus to move the upper arm holder back to where it was on the old G4 so that it automatically releases like it used to. Kevin I totally agree with you about the Delta style clamps. I have them on the top of my G4 I added them to the bottom also but did not like them there and went back to the Hawk clamps on the bottom. This is an old video of the G4 top feeding is presented at the 20 minute mark. The BM's are a little different on the upper arm holder. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCROLLSAW703 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 thanks Rolf. I will make that suggestion. KM, I agree. there isn't a saw out there that doesn't take some time to get to & understand. My first Hawk was a 220 & it took me awhile to get it set up to cut the way Im used to workin'. I've owned several brands of saws myself, & no two saws cut alike, imo. You can get them close, but not exactly. That's another reason I invested in the BM. I can adjust the aggressiveness of the blade to how I'm cuttin'. The best way I can explain it, if you've ever spent any time on a combine, put this in perspective. The older machines we couldn't make all the adjustments these new computerized machines can. Everything was adjusted by hand. Now all the adjustments are made from the cab with the push of a button. The machine will do its job goin' thru the field as you're makin' adjustments. The BM is, in comparison, the same. You can adjust the blade aggression & tension on the fly & keep cutting. And still get the results you want & need for that given project. The other saws I've owned, adjustments are pretty limited. kmmcrafts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockytime Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Good video. I'm Hawkish about my old Hawk. SCROLLSAW703 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragax Posted October 13, 2017 Report Share Posted October 13, 2017 I also have an old Hawk 220, I bottom feed. You get used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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