PAPER QUESTION

[Scrappile]

I have been having a real time lately with my patterns lifting up as I am scrolling.  I've cussed my spray adhesive, same as I always used, cussed my tape, same as I always used.  Then today I noticed it is the paper that is lifting, like a top layer or something.  There is still paper sticking to the tape, under the piece that is lifting up.  I know nothing about computer paper, other than there are differences, in things like weight and thickness... Do we have a paper expert here?   I always go in and just grab a ream or two of a mid priced paper.  This last ream is multipurpose, 20 pound, 96 brightness, says it has "colorlok technology, faster drying. bolderblack vivid colors"....  Office Depot brand.  Should I look for something lighter or heavier... I don't know......

[Jim McDonald]

Just a shot here, but that color lock technology may well be a coating or treatment that is interfering with adhesion.

I've never had a problem with 20lb paper. At our office someone tried some 18lb to "save" money, but it did not feed consistently and actually used more with the reprints. 

Going to a heavier stock would almost mean going to card stock, since mid-weight papers would be a special order and expensive in small quantities (if you could even order less than 10 reams).

[jerrye]

I sold copier paper as an add-on for about 12 years. Never heard of any paper delaminating. Tend to agree with Jim, in that what is coming apart may be the coating. If you wanted to try something a little heavier, 24# can usually be found at most office supply stores.

Paper, like anything manufactured, can have bad runs. Have you used this same paper in the past with no problems? If so, and OD hasn't started using a different manufacturer (which is possible, as they contract for the best price on their private label stock), I think you just got a bad lot.

[Wichman]

Where I work we laminate prints and canvas to mat board. We were having problems with the top layer of the mat board de-laminating (water based glue). The solution was to put weight on the laminated pieces until they had dried, perhaps this would be an option to try.

[oldhudson]

I worked in printing from '64 to the Great Recession. I have a couple of comments/thoughts. First I'd be sure you purchase virgin stock, not recycled. Second, I use 24# even though 20# is the standard bond weight. Keep stock enclosed in the original warper, paper just sucks up moisture which weakens the fibers. Finally, try a name brand stock instead of the house brand.

[Scrappile]

Thanks, all good info.  Now I have some things to go on. 

[Chunkthekid]

I have run into that problem as well. I had a few patterns in a row with the paper seeming to separate right in the middle. I made it through those thinking I was all of the sudden doing something wrong, then the problem went away and I hasn't happened since. I just chocked it up to a weird ream.

[teachnlearn]

Use to work at Kinkos Copy Center for a while after college. 20 weight is the general paper that is sold mostly. Something for both paper and woodworking is humidity. For some woodworkers, they go as far as using a moisture meter to check the woods moisture content. With scroll sawing, everyone grabs a piece of wood and starts a project. May want to get a temp, humidity meter and keep an eye on your shops/ room humidity. Could be enough that between the moisture of the wood and the room your adhesive is not setting up. .   I use cardstock which is much stiffer, rarely curls and have little problem putting the pattern down. Most Scrollers probably have no problem with working with the regular paper. Since becoming disabled I occasionally shake or tremor when tired or doing a repetitive task

These suggestions are alternative solutions for yourself or anyone having similar problems. RJF

[aj43]

I also have had patterns delaminate consistently, but not while I was cutting. Instead it was when I was removing the tape and pattern. I  think it may have something to do with the interaction of the mineral spirits I use to release the tape and glued down paper. Damp the bottom layer down again with mineral spirits  and it, too, comes free fairly easily. My assumption is that the mineral spirits was not soaking through to the spray glue between the wood and the pattern. The top layer was adhering to the tape; bottom layer was adhering to the glue under the paper.

The really weird part is that when I pulled up the tape and top layer of the pattern,  a different ghost image on the lower layer - and it was significantly out of register with the master pattern on the top layer that I was cutting. Have never figured out how or why that ghost image appeared. It occurred numerous times with, I think,  with different papers.

There are ghosts in the graveyard .... and also a few hiding behind my scroll saw.

[loftyhermes]

Being in the UK I've no idea how your lb weight paper compares to ours, our paper is measured in gsm. Standard photocopying paper is 80 gsm and I found this tends to split so I moved up to 100gsm and haven't had the problem since.

[jerrye]

1 hour ago, loftyhermes said:

Being in the UK I've no idea how your lb weight paper compares to ours, our paper is measured in gsm. Standard photocopying paper is 80 gsm and I found this tends to split so I moved up to 100gsm and haven't had the problem since.

https://www.starprintbrokers.com/resources/paper-conversion/

[kmmcrafts]

I've had the same issue once... turned out to be the saw blade... they have a top end and a bottom end.. Who Knew? 

Let me guess... You was using a FD-UR blade?

Now.. really it probably is a paper issue I've really had similar experience myself.. but I don't use a standard paper to print my labels.. I use self-adhesive full sheet shipping labels to print my patterns on.. and once in a while I'll get one that will do this.. to get through the project without it ripping my whole paper off I'll switch to a different blade like a scroll reverse or something with no reverse teeth at the pattern level.. and I'm good to go... I always wondered if it was the paper or something with the blade itself.. because it just does it random.. one time I only swapped to another FD-UR blade and it stopped happening.. so I always kinda played it as a bur or something on my blade.. either way.. it was always the FD-UR that would do this to me... So now the question... is it the blade or the paper, LOL

Maybe both..maybe neither.. who knows..   

[amazingkevin]

Just today my spray glue ,( a new bottle )was the culpret and the card puzzle was coming apart cutting it. Ends up it was an older bottle of glue i guess and needed a good shaking.Works fine now.

[new2woodwrk]

Paper is typically a layered product, so I'm not surprised to hear about this.

What I use is "recycled" paper from Office Max/Depot whatever their name is now.

It's a 30%, 20 lb recycled paper and I've not experienced the same issue.

Then again, I'm sure I've not cut nearly as many pieces as you.

[crupiea]

Been my experience that thicker paper seems to lift more.

I use the cheapest computer paper i can get at walmart.  Obviously it will be the thinnest.

To attach it, i use a very very thin coat of spray glue.  very thin.  Like 1 second for the whole sheet.

Then i let it sit for at least 20 minutes.  20 minutes, no less.  Any less and it will stick and be a bear to scrape off.  Longer if fine.

When i finally remember i sprayed some glue, i just slap it on the wood and thats that.  No tape, no nothing else.   Stays in place and never fails me. 

I have experimented with all sorts of different fixes for this and this is the one that works for me. This coat, son minutes to dry.  It should ju just barely barely tacky.  Nowhere near as tacky as a post it note.  way less than that.

[OCtoolguy]

On 5/26/2019 at 6:09 PM, crupiea said:

Been my experience that thicker paper seems to lift more.

I use the cheapest computer paper i can get at walmart.  Obviously it will be the thinnest.

To attach it, i use a very very thin coat of spray glue.  very thin.  Like 1 second for the whole sheet.

Then i let it sit for at least 20 minutes.  20 minutes, no less.  Any less and it will stick and be a bear to scrape off.  Longer if fine.

When i finally remember i sprayed some glue, i just slap it on the wood and thats that.  No tape, no nothing else.   Stays in place and never fails me. 

I have experimented with all sorts of different fixes for this and this is the one that works for me. This coat, son minutes to dry.  It should ju just barely barely tacky.  Nowhere near as tacky as a post it note.  way less than that.

I think I've been doing it all wrong. Too much spray glue, not enough "wait" time. I'll try it your way. What adhesive do you use? I have 3M 77 and also Elmer's spray adhesive.

 

[crupiea]

2 hours ago, octoolguy said:

I think I've been doing it all wrong. Too much spray glue, not enough "wait" time. I'll try it your way. What adhesive do you use? I have 3M 77 and also Elmer's spray adhesive.




 

 

I just use whatever use the cheapest stuff I can find at walmart.   The wait time will be difficult to initially wrap your head around.  It will be almost untacky after waiting so long or so it seems but thats good. That means it will come off when you want it to.  

Just practice on some scrap. it takes a bit if fiddling with but once you get it down its great.  

Edited May 29, 2019 by crupiea